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4431 posts

Uber Geek
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  # 1040791 9-May-2014 12:51
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A ticket isn't a service. It's a good that provides right of entry to a venue at a certain time on a certain day to the holder.

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  # 1040807 9-May-2014 13:11
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gzt: The main difference is that you seem to regard the ticket as 'goods'.

However, the reality is that the seller is selling a service, for which the ticket provides entry. If the service is no longer available (concert cancellation) and the seller does not refund the cost of the service then minimally I would expect TradeMe to contact the seller and ask for an explanation like they will do for other examples of this nature. If there is no good explanation then I would expect TM to suspend the account. It surprises me that they will not take these two basic steps (that are fundamental to their service) for this type of sale. It's very clear cut in this case.

There is no disputed question about the quality of the service provided, the service was not provided at all.

I regard the tickets as 'goods' because that's exactly what they are. The goods provide an entitlement to the original purchaser, via an official seller, to see a service provided by a third party. The provision of service comes from a. the act and b. the promoter.

I can't comment on 'other examples' as you put it as you don't provide any links, but I would be interested to see what you're trying get at. I can see Trademe getting involved if there's a sale (payment) made but no goods get sent as this is fraud, which is something massively different to an unforeseeable event occurring some time after a sale has been completed. Again, Trademe's obligations (legal and moral) end after the sale of tickets is completed to both parties satisfaction.



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Uber Geek

  # 1040909 9-May-2014 16:03
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Not a bad explanation that one : ).

However, I still think if an agent sold several hundred tickets and an event was cancelled, and no communication from the Agent/seller, trademe would be giving them a call to seek an explanation. Imho this is a clear cut case unlike say a warranty for goods sold not being honoured. I don't see this differnt for one individual sale through another party.

But at this point I think we'll have to agree to disagree. ; ). Your explanation is a good one.

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  # 1040933 9-May-2014 16:57
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Dratsab: Late to the party. Again. Nightmarishly long day yesterday. Now that I've flicked through the thread...(TL;DR version at end of post)

gzt: Continued from off-topic discussion in Wheedle thread...

dratsab: The reason Trademe don't get involved has already been explained.

I read your previous posts but none contained an explanation of why TradeMe would not get involved in the one case of concert tickets.

Starting with this one: I haven't made any posts about why Trademe don't get involved. AJobbins did, here.

gzt: Last time I purchased concert tickets from TradeMe they were sold by a person who had received complimentary tickets but could not attend due to a pre-booked holiday on the same date. Concert was sold out, the asking price was the same as or very close to the booking office price iirc. I was a happy customer. 

Hypothetically if the concert had been cancelled I expect that person would have refunded the purchase price. I would have expected some involvement from TradeMe if the person did not. 

Can you explain to me then why TradeMe are happy to collect the commissions from these sales but are unwilling to take minimal steps to protect the integrity of the market in this instance? 

gzt: on the first line you describe a perfectly valid reason for someone to sell tickets, and I'm sure this does happen on a relatively regular basis. As has already been linked to by Oblivion, the T&C's of ticketing companies generally allow this as long as the seller is not making a profit.

With your hypothetical situation you are 100% correct: I expect that person would have refunded the purchase price. Given your correctness, I'm at a complete loss why you suddenly contradict yourself and expect Trademe to get involved if the person didn't refund your money. Trademe's obligations are discharged once the transaction is completed to the satisfaction of both parties. A future event is not their concern. Scuwp has quite rightly said it's a civil matter - it's a matter between yourself and the seller. 

From my own observations, when 'high interest' acts come here for a concert they sell out extremely fast. Tickets start appearing for resale very quickly on places like Trademe at an inflated value and these are snapped up by people who 'just have to' see the act. Good on 'em. Two points arise from here:
1. Trademe's job is not to enforce 3rd party T&C's - the obligation is on the original purchaser to act within the T&C's
2. Cancellation of concerts is unplanned and uncommon.

Feeding into all of this, the tickets sellers, whether genuine or scalper, are not generally out to commit fraud - i.e. they sell, you buy, everybody's happy. Then the carpet gets pulled out from under someones feet with a concert getting cancelled. The original purchaser gets a refund which is generally electronic these days.

Geektastic: I see no good reason why the refund should go to the person who no longer owns the tickets rather than the person who does.


This has nothing to do with being lazy and everything to do with ticketing companies keeping a record of who paid them (as they are the official supplier) and expecting the purchaser to abide by their obligations. You can waste as much time as you like arguing about this point until you're blue in the face if you want - but it really is that simple. As is the point about it being a civil matter. If it comes down to taking the reseller (from Trademe) to a disputes tribunal, you can get their details - it just takes  some effort. Nothing is going to get handed to you on a silver platter.

There is a blog post about all of this on the Trademe site. It enunciates a lot of the issues very well.

I'll put up another +1 for caveat emptor.

TL;DR - Trademe is not the problem. The lack of policies and enforcement by the official sellers is.

Edit: Spelling/grammar. Disclaimer: Still not guaranteed to be correct.

It's a shame that TM don't include anything in that post on their blog making it clear that sellers owe a moral obligation (which should be a legal one IMV) to refund the purchase price in the event of a cancelled event.

There's a tendency in NZ to stick rigidly to the law rather than volunteer to stand out by offering better than the law requires, which is a shame.


11026 posts

Uber Geek

  # 1041027 9-May-2014 19:05
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That tendency exists in every country. Could be the subject of another offtopic discussion ; )

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