Is the Green Party the Communist Party in disguise?

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MikeB4

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#1050569 21-May-2014 17:16

D1023319:
JimmyH: The fundamental driver of prices seems to me to be an imbalance between demand and supply, with constraints on supply meaning that demand pushes prices ever higher. There does seem to be some merit in what the Govt claims to be doing to tackle the supply-side of the housing market (land supply, cost of building materials, cost and time taken to consent etc). On the demand side of the probl;em there seems to be less they can do, unless they are willing to tighten immigration rules.

As you say immigration is the key.

Personally I am as much concerned by our system that allows NZ people to have duel passports.
i.e. once a kiwi, always a kiwi not matter how long you have abroad.
So whats to stop the vast hoards that have left this country coming back here to retire, driving up house costs and being a drain on our health services???
With the Aust economy about to go through real rough patch, is this something we should be concerned about?

Are you saying that New Zealanders that are overseas should not be allowed to return? If so that is so wrong.

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JimmyH

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#1050601 21-May-2014 18:52

D1023319:
JimmyH: The fundamental driver of prices seems to me to be an imbalance between demand and supply, with constraints on supply meaning that demand pushes prices ever higher. There does seem to be some merit in what the Govt claims to be doing to tackle the supply-side of the housing market (land supply, cost of building materials, cost and time taken to consent etc). On the demand side of the probl;em there seems to be less they can do, unless they are willing to tighten immigration rules.

As you say immigration is the key.

Personally I am as much concerned by our system that allows NZ people to have duel passports.
i.e. once a kiwi, always a kiwi not matter how long you have abroad.
So whats to stop the vast hoards that have left this country coming back here to retire, driving up house costs and being a drain on our health services???
With the Aust economy about to go through real rough patch, is this something we should be concerned about?

Thanks for the support - but that's not actually what I said. It's about the demand/supply balance, or which immigration is only one of several drivers. Since I'm sceptical they will do much on immigration, I was more saying that action would have to come on the supply side of the equation.

Stopping NZ citizens from re-entering the country would be a big step, and not one I support. Something could, however, be done to pro-rate NZ super depending on the number of years a person has been in the country as an adult paying taxes before claiming it?

MikeAqua

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#1050605 21-May-2014 18:56

I don't favor a pro rata approach. Either you are a nz citizen with all the rights that entails or you aren't. Varying standards of citizenship are a slippery slope IMO.

Mike

SaltyNZ

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#1050625 21-May-2014 19:42

D1023319:
JimmyH: The fundamental driver of prices seems to me to be an imbalance between demand and supply, with constraints on supply meaning that demand pushes prices ever higher. There does seem to be some merit in what the Govt claims to be doing to tackle the supply-side of the housing market (land supply, cost of building materials, cost and time taken to consent etc). On the demand side of the probl;em there seems to be less they can do, unless they are willing to tighten immigration rules.

As you say immigration is the key.

Personally I am as much concerned by our system that allows NZ people to have duel passports.
i.e. once a kiwi, always a kiwi not matter how long you have abroad.
So whats to stop the vast hoards that have left this country coming back here to retire, driving up house costs and being a drain on our health services???
With the Aust economy about to go through real rough patch, is this something we should be concerned about?

The thing you're forgetting about people moving to NZ to retire is that they bring all their assets with them. It's a net positive.

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Sidestep

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#1050629 21-May-2014 20:00

SaltyNZ:The thing you're forgetting about people moving to NZ to retire is that they bring all their assets with them. It's a net positive.

Not only that - but, as one of those multiple citizenship holding Kiwis, I returned to NZ and for the past 5 years have been paying NZ taxes on my worldwide income. The People of NZ take a cut from my overseas business.

The Kiwi expats I know are generally clever and successful people, I'd imagine if they decided to return they'd markedly improve the economy.

gzt

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#1050740 21-May-2014 22:50

A lot of the so called wealth in NZ is generated by property and is based on insufficient supply rather than meeting demand. I'd like to see far more property investment directed towards new construction. The price of the 1/4 acre paradise will not be affected by that, there will always be a limited supply of it, and existing rental investors do not need to worry about it.

I don't know about other centres but many of the apartments in Auckland are low quality living even when they have a high sticker price. The banks have known this for many years - this is why the deposit requirements are so much higher for most apartments.

This area is where overseas investment has a massive role to play and that is where we should be looking to attract it - not the existing 1/4 acre property market.

ajobbins

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#1050763 21-May-2014 23:00

The other reason apartments require a high deposit is that unlike a house on a piece of land, you don't own the land it's on. It's the land that appreciates, not the dwelling (or 'improvements'), therefore apartments often don't rise in value as quickly, and are therefore riskier for lenders when borrowers have low equity.

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gzt

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#1050767 21-May-2014 23:25

ajobbins: The other reason apartments require a high deposit is that unlike a house on a piece of land, you don't own the land it's on. It's the land that appreciates, not the dwelling (or 'improvements'), therefore apartments often don't rise in value as quickly, and are therefore riskier for lenders when borrowers have low equity.

That's at least partly incorrect. Freehold apartments do effectively own the land the building is sited on.

Geektastic

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#1050775 21-May-2014 23:34

JimmyH:
D1023319:
JimmyH: The fundamental driver of prices seems to me to be an imbalance between demand and supply, with constraints on supply meaning that demand pushes prices ever higher. There does seem to be some merit in what the Govt claims to be doing to tackle the supply-side of the housing market (land supply, cost of building materials, cost and time taken to consent etc). On the demand side of the probl;em there seems to be less they can do, unless they are willing to tighten immigration rules.

As you say immigration is the key.

Personally I am as much concerned by our system that allows NZ people to have duel passports.
i.e. once a kiwi, always a kiwi not matter how long you have abroad.
So whats to stop the vast hoards that have left this country coming back here to retire, driving up house costs and being a drain on our health services???
With the Aust economy about to go through real rough patch, is this something we should be concerned about?

Thanks for the support - but that's not actually what I said. It's about the demand/supply balance, or which immigration is only one of several drivers. Since I'm sceptical they will do much on immigration, I was more saying that action would have to come on the supply side of the equation.

Stopping NZ citizens from re-entering the country would be a big step, and not one I support. Something could, however, be done to pro-rate NZ super depending on the number of years a person has been in the country as an adult paying taxes before claiming it?

I think there is a mandatory length of time before you can claim NZ Super. 10 years rings a bell.

I don't recall anything that says you have to pay tax during the qualifying period though.

k1wi

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#1050798 22-May-2014 00:56

Geektastic: I think there is a mandatory length of time before you can claim NZ Super. 10 years rings a bell.

I don't recall anything that says you have to pay tax during the qualifying period though.

I highly doubt this would ever become Green Party policy [for one thing they probably receive a disproportionate amount of special votes from the NZ abroad population], so I'm not saying the below is a Green Party issue.

According to the MSD website:

"You must also have been resident and present in New Zealand for at least 10 years since you turned 20 years of age (and 5 of those years must be since you turned 50) [with a few exceptions]." Where it gets more complicated is that New Zealand has a number of bilateral social security agreements with foreign countries (such as Australia and the UK), in which living in those countries add allow NZ super (and vice versa).

As a dual citizen living abroad, I am perhaps a little biased* against the idea of turning New Zealand's diaspora away at the door. For one thing, it would make us one of the few countries in the world that would be disengaging from the diaspora community, as most countries are actively engaging them and extending support to them. After all over 10% of the world's population is living in a different country to that which they were born in.

"Once a kiwi always a kiwi no matter how long you have abroad" conflates citizenship and residency and would unfairly target dual citizens, when NZers with foreign residency may have spent equal amounts of time abroad. Besides - most New Zealanders in Australia aren't dual citizens (because the majority are there under a visa class that ensures they are unable to acquire Australian citizenship). Therefore any attempt to control immigration through limiting dual citizens from returning to New Zealand would be highly ineffectual.

As someone who has relocated across international borders, I cannot emphasise the importance of making these processes as fair as possible. Being fair is not only across individuals at a point in time, but also across time. The general population might not think that "we're not accepting anyone this year, try again next year, or maybe the year after" has a major impact on the lives of people, but for the individual mover, it has a major impact.

*For a fun time, ask a group of individuals to come to a consensus about what citizenship means...

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