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  Reply # 1043523 14-May-2014 10:48
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MikeAqua: "The rich keep getting richer under national" etc

The rich get richer under any government, but when the left of centre parties are in opposition they highlight, that the rich are getting richer.  It's a fact of life that some people are good at accumulating wealth.  The real problem is that the poor are getting poorer.

It is possible in a wealthy economy with heavy taxation to have a socialist system that functions reasonably well, still allows people to accumulate wealth and provides an incentive to take risk and innovate.  This is what the Nordic countries have historically managed to achieve.  It should be noted that the rich get richer in Nordic countries too, but a decent standard of living is provided to almost everyone, due to strong and expensive social policies.

Those countries have abundant natural resources which they exploit extensively.  Forests, fish, aquaculture, oil, geothermal electricity.  They have developed export industries based on these industries e.g. Nokia, Ikea, Marel and countless companies who sell expertise and technology in the oil, fishing and aquaculture sectors.

The wealth and IP arising from natural resources have enabled their economies to afford socialist policies, and provide incomes high enough that you can tax the stuffing out of people and despite the high cost of living in those countries they can still have a nice lifestyle.

The greens would like to introduce a whole lot of socialist policies without exploiting natural resources.  How will they fund them? 

You can tax the rich for a while, but that isn't actually creating the wealth you need to support social policy.








We could be richer if we more actively explored and exploited our natural mineral wealth. Look at how wealthy Norway has become as a result of that - their surplus fund is worth over US$850 billion!!

Imagine what NZ could do with that kind of wealth? Now, maybe we don't have it but I darned well want full geological surveys done of everywhere (no sacred cows) to find out so that we can actually have an informed discussion.





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  Reply # 1043526 14-May-2014 10:50
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Geektastic:
MikeAqua: "The rich keep getting richer under national" etc

The rich get richer under any government, but when the left of centre parties are in opposition they highlight, that the rich are getting richer.  It's a fact of life that some people are good at accumulating wealth.  The real problem is that the poor are getting poorer.

It is possible in a wealthy economy with heavy taxation to have a socialist system that functions reasonably well, still allows people to accumulate wealth and provides an incentive to take risk and innovate.  This is what the Nordic countries have historically managed to achieve.  It should be noted that the rich get richer in Nordic countries too, but a decent standard of living is provided to almost everyone, due to strong and expensive social policies.

Those countries have abundant natural resources which they exploit extensively.  Forests, fish, aquaculture, oil, geothermal electricity.  They have developed export industries based on these industries e.g. Nokia, Ikea, Marel and countless companies who sell expertise and technology in the oil, fishing and aquaculture sectors.

The wealth and IP arising from natural resources have enabled their economies to afford socialist policies, and provide incomes high enough that you can tax the stuffing out of people and despite the high cost of living in those countries they can still have a nice lifestyle.

The greens would like to introduce a whole lot of socialist policies without exploiting natural resources.  How will they fund them? 

You can tax the rich for a while, but that isn't actually creating the wealth you need to support social policy.








We could be richer if we more actively explored and exploited our natural mineral wealth. Look at how wealthy Norway has become as a result of that - their surplus fund is worth over US$850 billion!!

Imagine what NZ could do with that kind of wealth? Now, maybe we don't have it but I darned well want full geological surveys done of everywhere (no sacred cows) to find out so that we can actually have an informed discussion.


we have more to gain from tourism and sustainable Agriculture than we have from holes in the ground and wrecked landscape




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1043527 14-May-2014 10:51
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KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
MikeAqua: "The rich keep getting richer under national" etc

The rich get richer under any government, but when the left of centre parties are in opposition they highlight, that the rich are getting richer.  It's a fact of life that some people are good at accumulating wealth.  The real problem is that the poor are getting poorer.

It is possible in a wealthy economy with heavy taxation to have a socialist system that functions reasonably well, still allows people to accumulate wealth and provides an incentive to take risk and innovate.  This is what the Nordic countries have historically managed to achieve.  It should be noted that the rich get richer in Nordic countries too, but a decent standard of living is provided to almost everyone, due to strong and expensive social policies.

Those countries have abundant natural resources which they exploit extensively.  Forests, fish, aquaculture, oil, geothermal electricity.  They have developed export industries based on these industries e.g. Nokia, Ikea, Marel and countless companies who sell expertise and technology in the oil, fishing and aquaculture sectors.

The wealth and IP arising from natural resources have enabled their economies to afford socialist policies, and provide incomes high enough that you can tax the stuffing out of people and despite the high cost of living in those countries they can still have a nice lifestyle.

The greens would like to introduce a whole lot of socialist policies without exploiting natural resources.  How will they fund them? 

You can tax the rich for a while, but that isn't actually creating the wealth you need to support social policy.








We could be richer if we more actively explored and exploited our natural mineral wealth. Look at how wealthy Norway has become as a result of that - their surplus fund is worth over US$850 billion!!

Imagine what NZ could do with that kind of wealth? Now, maybe we don't have it but I darned well want full geological surveys done of everywhere (no sacred cows) to find out so that we can actually have an informed discussion.


we have more to gain from tourism and sustainable Agriculture than we have from holes in the ground and wrecked landscape


I contend that we do not in fact know the answer to that question at this point in time and that we need to.





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  Reply # 1043529 14-May-2014 10:54
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The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money - M Thatcher.




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  Reply # 1043535 14-May-2014 11:03
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I ended up firmly in the middle of the green square and it is no surprise which way I have voted in the past few elections.

Having said that I think as much of an outcome for a country depends on the quality of the government, rather than where it lies on the spectrum.  For example you can have countries that do well on the authoritarian right (e.g. Singapore) as well as on the libertarian left (e.g. Scandanavia).  On the other hand bad govts can ruin a country no matter where on the political spectrum they lie.

I also think despite many politicians in the Anglophone world moving to the right and decrying socialism, equating it with economic ruin, the Scandanavian countries have been doing economically well.



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  Reply # 1043540 14-May-2014 11:16
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The politicians (and public I think) havent worked out how MMP works - or should work.

Instead of automatically deriding an idea that another party has - just because its not your idea - its ok to look and say - 'yes - that could work'.
Its not stealing - its not always against your principles - sometimes a good idea is just a good idea.
I would have respect for a government that actually considered ideas that others had.

Under MMP there can (and should be) some mix and match.
We dont have a purely left or right government - we can have various alliances depending on individual policies.

For example, while not a "green" idea - I think there is merit in looking at the idea of increasing kiwisaver contribution rates rather than just bumping up interest rates periodically. Makes sense to me to actually store the money away for kiwis to use later rather than just make banks bigger profits. Some economists like it some dont - but at least look at it a bit further.

The Greens idea of a green fund for kickstarting business development seems sensible enough to me - depending on how its implemented. Even capitalist business needs a nudge to get started sometimes. We cant just depend on trees and milk forever.




Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

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  Reply # 1043541 14-May-2014 11:16
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Looks like I'm pretty close to the Dalai Lama. Which is quite a coincidence, since I have a quote by him stuck to my computer screen.





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  Reply # 1043569 14-May-2014 11:35
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This surprised me actually. Thought I would be closer to the middle on both axis





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  Reply # 1043624 14-May-2014 11:59
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geekiegeek: The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money - M Thatcher.


Very true then and just as true now.





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  Reply # 1043641 14-May-2014 12:09
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Hmmm, I think I've voted for three different parties in the last three elections.


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  Reply # 1043717 14-May-2014 12:48
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geekiegeek: The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money - M Thatcher.


The problem with glib one-liners such as that, is that they end up getting quoted - disingenuously for "political effect" - like some kind of slogan - when they actually aren't verbatim quotes from the person attributed to have said them, when the "shortened version" you have quoted is out of context, and even if quoted correctly and in context (of the era as well as the particular circumstances which M Thatcher was discussing), then should beg comparison with the alternatives. 

When there never has been, isn't now, and presumably never will be either a "pure" socialist or capitalist state, instead all being in arguable positions on a continuum between one and the other, then it's pointless name-calling.  The reason why I say "arguable position on the continuum" is that there's inevitably corruption of principles often around basic human rights and freedoms and morality - and trying to pin that down to allocate a score isn't ever going to be easy.



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  Reply # 1043749 14-May-2014 13:02
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As the originator - heres my compass



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  Reply # 1043751 14-May-2014 13:04
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I've taken the rest on a semi regular basis, and over the last X many years my results have pretty much always fallen within the box marked on here.





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  Reply # 1043763 14-May-2014 13:08
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The point is you can do it all.  It's not either or.  There is strong Tourism in Nordic countries as well as extractive industries and primary production.  You don't have to 'wreck' the landscape either.  Have you been to the Coromandel? Tourism scenery and mining.  Ditto Central Otago. Ditto West Coast.  Taupo has tourism scenery and geothermal electricity.

You do have to manage well to balance activities.  Where does good management happen? In wealthy countries.

How do countries get wealthy? Generally, by using natural resources.

But in NZ we have gone banaas: Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone

Just print more money ...

KiwiNZ:

we have more to gain from tourism and sustainable Agriculture than we have from holes in the ground and wrecked landscape




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  Reply # 1043796 14-May-2014 13:23
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And proud of it.

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