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  Reply # 1047281 17-May-2014 22:12
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networkn: 
Actually it's you, I believe who needs to get over themselves. You collapsed, someone else had to make a call which POTENTIALLY as far as they were concerned, could have saved your life, next minute you are using this thread as your own soapbox to lament the fact the service rendered TO YOU, FOR YOU, cost you something, and that St Johns have the need to chase money hard, for exactly this reason (People using ANY excuse not to pay).

None of this particular section of this thread related to this topic is on thread and should be finished now and taken elsewhere.



No, that's completely incorrect.  For a start, I think it's actually very relevant to when it's actually appropriate to call 111.  A lot of advice in this thread is posited on the dispatchers making a triage call and deciding when an ambulance is necessary.  Based on that experience, dispatchers most definitely do not know when it's appropriate to dispatch an ambulance - since mere unconsciousness would not warrant a callout even by the basic training of a St John provided First Aid course so why dispatchers would send an ambulance for that is a mystery beyond comprehension.

When it's for yourself, call an ambulance for inappropriate junk all you want - it's your money.   When it's someone else, that's a completely different story.

And actually, I did pay the invoice.  I said I was tempted not to by the bad attitude they display in their correspondence.  They don't have legal grounds to demand payment, yet they set 14 day "due dates" and threaten collections anyway.  And if you're attempting to make me feel bad with your emphasis, give it up now, since said service rendered WAS NOT REQUESTED, hence really no it really shouldn't cost anything.  If you disagree, I'll drop around and mow your lawn sometime without asking, and then what the hey I'll send you a $150 invoice for it.  I have a lot of sympathy for the frontline staff.  They're professional, friendly, underpaid, and get a lot of hassle day to day.  I have zero sympathy for the prats in corporate.

That's the last to be said on that.



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  Reply # 1047290 17-May-2014 22:41
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Kyanar:
networkn: 
Actually it's you, I believe who needs to get over themselves. You collapsed, someone else had to make a call which POTENTIALLY as far as they were concerned, could have saved your life, next minute you are using this thread as your own soapbox to lament the fact the service rendered TO YOU, FOR YOU, cost you something, and that St Johns have the need to chase money hard, for exactly this reason (People using ANY excuse not to pay).

None of this particular section of this thread related to this topic is on thread and should be finished now and taken elsewhere.



No, that's completely incorrect.  For a start, I think it's actually very relevant to when it's actually appropriate to call 111.  A lot of advice in this thread is posited on the dispatchers making a triage call and deciding when an ambulance is necessary.  Based on that experience, dispatchers most definitely do not know when it's appropriate to dispatch an ambulance - since mere unconsciousness would not warrant a callout even by the basic training of a St John provided First Aid course so why dispatchers would send an ambulance for that is a mystery beyond comprehension.

When it's for yourself, call an ambulance for inappropriate junk all you want - it's your money.   When it's someone else, that's a completely different story.

And actually, I did pay the invoice.  I said I was tempted not to by the bad attitude they display in their correspondence.  They don't have legal grounds to demand payment, yet they set 14 day "due dates" and threaten collections anyway.  And if you're attempting to make me feel bad with your emphasis, give it up now, since said service rendered WAS NOT REQUESTED, hence really no it really shouldn't cost anything.  If you disagree, I'll drop around and mow your lawn sometime without asking, and then what the hey I'll send you a $150 invoice for it.  I have a lot of sympathy for the frontline staff.  They're professional, friendly, underpaid, and get a lot of hassle day to day.  I have zero sympathy for the prats in corporate.

That's the last to be said on that.


It's not even remotely the same thing. If you came around to my house and mowed my lawn because it was showing signs that COULD indicate it might die, and then sent me a REASONABLE sized bill (say $15), I'd pay and be happy about it. You didn't get charged 10x the going rate for an ambulance and someone made a call. If they hadn't and you HAD died or had a severe consequence, you would be much more unhappy and the press would be savaging the entire healthcare system for it's failures. I am sorry to say, you just aren't seeing this clearly.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1047293 17-May-2014 22:58
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Seriously folks? Kyanar, reading here you're not happy there was an invoice from St Johns for a service you didn't want. Let me see: one is unconscious, someone else calls an ambulance in an act of kindness, despair or idiocy and one doesn't feel grateful another person was willing to feel worried, then complain about being invoiced?

As above, are also mad at this other person for having called the ambulance? 

I think it's a storm in a teacup brewing here folks...





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  Reply # 1047301 17-May-2014 23:47
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MadEngineer:
Kyanar: and dispute the invoice once they sent it to collections on the basis that the law does not permit you to invoice someone for services they (or someone with signed power of attorney) did not explicitly request (making their invoice an illegal contract).
err, when you call 111 you would have requested an ambulance otherwise it's a given that when you call 111 for a medical emergency you're requesting their service.


Doesn't fly unless they advised you as part of the call what the charges would be and you accepted them - which anyone really in need of an ambulance would not be able to do! Also what happens if a stranger finds you dying by the road and calls one? They can't accept charges on your behalf.





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  Reply # 1047302 17-May-2014 23:48
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tdgeek: Networkn, how you doing?

I've been to hostibal twice, once as a kid for tonsils, once as a teen for hit in head by a golf ball. I got taken from work a week or so ago, as passed out due to heart related meds. Call 111. That's what taxes are for. If we were cats and had nine lives you can chance it, but we aren't.


We could be Lizards though....





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  Reply # 1047303 17-May-2014 23:49
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networkn:
Geektastic:
networkn: Hi There!

As the unlucky recipient of Kidney Stones earlier this week which happened at 4am, we were faced with an interesting problem. Who to call to get me to the hospital. I felt fairly sure it was kidney stones (my wife is a GP) and knew even though the pain was excruciating, my life wasn't in peril. I definitely wasn't safe to drive, though and my wife wasn't able to drive me (2 very young children). In the end I called Alert Taxi's (Big shout out for some of the most impressive service I've gotten). Alert got me there faster than an ambulance I think, but it led me to wonder if I would have been ok to call 111.

The plus side of an Ambulance would have been the morphine would have got on board somewhat earlier.



I would have thought a GP would know the answer to this question...!


It wasn't a matter of if I could which I knew I COULD have, it was whether I should. In the end the Taxi was faster anyways. No way would an ambulance have done those speeds :) 



Quite. Surely a GP would know whether an ambulance was an appropriate solution to a particular problem?





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  Reply # 1047304 17-May-2014 23:54
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freitasm: Seriously folks? Kyanar, reading here you're not happy there was an invoice from St Johns for a service you didn't want. Let me see: one is unconscious, someone else calls an ambulance in an act of kindness, despair or idiocy and one doesn't feel grateful another person was willing to feel worried, then complain about being invoiced?

As above, are also mad at this other person for having called the ambulance? 

I think it's a storm in a teacup brewing here folks...



I disagree - I think that you should no more pay for an ambulance than you should pay for the police or whatever.

Ambulance services are certainly at least as deserving of tax funding as free prescriptions for children or treating a tree disease. For example. Indeed, I would say that in a NZ context, they are more worthy of taxpayer funding than the Airforce. (Note that I say that not as a suggestion of any disrespect to the Airforce, merely that as a nation we do not really need one but we do need an ambulance service.)





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  Reply # 1047311 18-May-2014 00:45
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These are two different things. Sure, the ambulance service could/should (depending on point of view) be publicly funded. Fact is the service is not funded so it charges and if the service was provided, so be it.

In Wellington there's the Wellington Free Ambulance service - so there's an alternative to St Johns here. From their page: "When you call 111 for an ambulance in our region, it’s Wellington Free Ambulance that responds to that call, and at no cost to the patient."








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  Reply # 1047328 18-May-2014 05:11
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Was trying to post link to St John website on When to call 111 but having issues with IE on work machine. Rest of comment lost.

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  Reply # 1047342 18-May-2014 09:16
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From where do St John get your personal details to bill you for this trip to the hospital in one of their ambulances? From the hospital I presume.




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  Reply # 1047367 18-May-2014 10:00
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DarthKermit: From where do St John get your personal details to bill you for this trip to the hospital in one of their ambulances? From the hospital I presume.


When they attend, they ask you to fill in a form (you are not advised that it's so they can send you a $90 threat letter).  However, in cases where they never get to speak to you, that's a good question.  I don't think they have access to the NHI to look up the details and hospitals require consent to share details with anyone except your registered GP (in the case of laboratory tests, even with your GP).

Of interest, why does ACC not cover this expense anyway?  It seems odd that you can get an ambulance to an A&E and the medical treatment is covered but by jove you can pay for the transport yourself.  The medical funding system here is bizarre beyond belief.

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  Reply # 1047369 18-May-2014 10:03
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as the Ambulance Services in NZ are charities I have no issue what so ever paying them to save my life. I always donate to the Wellington Free Ambulance when I have used them.




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  Reply # 1047374 18-May-2014 10:09
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kingjj: Was trying to post link to St John website on When to call 111 but having issues with IE on work machine. Rest of comment lost.


Well that mostly covers it for me, "severe pain" (it was worse than that but ok :))

Thanks for posting that link :)


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  Reply # 1047378 18-May-2014 10:19
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Kyanar:
DarthKermit: From where do St John get your personal details to bill you for this trip to the hospital in one of their ambulances? From the hospital I presume.


When they attend, they ask you to fill in a form (you are not advised that it's so they can send you a $90 threat letter).  However, in cases where they never get to speak to you, that's a good question.  I don't think they have access to the NHI to look up the details and hospitals require consent to share details with anyone except your registered GP (in the case of laboratory tests, even with your GP).

Of interest, why does ACC not cover this expense anyway?  It seems odd that you can get an ambulance to an A&E and the medical treatment is covered but by jove you can pay for the transport yourself.  The medical funding system here is bizarre beyond belief.


I think ACC pays if it is an ACC injury - so kidney stones aren't covered, but a drunken fall is covered. In a way it is consistent, but yes bizzare

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  Reply # 1047487 18-May-2014 16:04
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Ambulance service funding is 75%, of what it actually costs per year.  This is made up by the DHB funding and by ACC funding.  The shortfall in funding is picked up by payments you make . ie the partial charge or by the organisations fundraising the difference.  The DHB funding is a set amount, while ACC funding is based on certain criteria if it is an accident.  Also the patient must be transported to receive the ACC funding.

Demand is increasing, however funding is slow to move with it.  IIRC demand is increasing 10% per year, but funding doesnt increase by 10% every year.  I would caution those with the attitude of you pay your taxes so should utilise it whenever.. this rationale means ambulances are not available for critical incidents like the Hamilton example form this thread.


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