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  Reply # 1069748 20-Jun-2014 09:30
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tangerz:
freitasm: OIf your list, #8, #9 and #10 aren't illegal. The other ones are.



Yeah it's easy to just define legal/illegal... I was more looking for different views on the whole thing... what people deem to be piracy, (regardless of it's legality).

Like for instance the video format shifting thing. Is it illegal? Yes. Does that mean everyone views it as piracy? If I want to view my legally purchased Blu-ray on my tablet by format shifting it, does that lump me in with everyone who just download a torrent of the same movie? If you stick with the letter of the law then yes, both are copyright infringement. But I am of the opinion they are vastly different things... and I see nothing at all wrong with video format shifting, 'illegal' though it may be.

And you say #9 isn't illegal? Doesn't watching content intended to only be freely available in other countries 'impact revenue streams of content providers' in this country? Wouldn't that make it illegal? (the FUG about post removal wouuld seem to indicate as much)

And isn't #10 also illegal unless you have the consent of the rights holder?


#9 is not illegal, because New Zealand law specifically does not recognise or protect technological prevention measures designed solely to enforce geographical separation.  Our laws are quite forward thinking in the sense that they recognise that we are in a global economy and there is no legitimate reason to enforce price disparity disconnected from actual costs to deliver a product, or contractual provisions designed solely to ensure there's a local middleman clipping the ticket (i.e. Sky, who frankly can get bent)

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  Reply # 1069761 20-Jun-2014 09:55
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I've done most of this including the downloading.
 
For me there is a big gulf between the legal and the moral. 

Remember the old iPods which cost about $500 and could hold 20,000 songs? At one dollar per song on iTunes that would be ... $20,000 to fill your iPod. Anybody know anybody who did that? No, me neither. Where did Jobs and Co think you were going to get the songs? 

 

This does not make it legal to download or rip content.

Paying for an overseas streaming service and breaking the terms of service isn't illegal.

Maybe if you haven't been convicted you haven't done anything wrong? There are plenty of politicians who and corporations which would say exactly that.

It seems to be slowly dawning that YouTube is the biggest violator of copyright that there is. Larry Page is on record saying he doesn't believe in intellectual property rights, other peoples anyway.

At the end of the day I guess the moral position is a personal thing. The legal is about getting caught or not.

Me? I try to behave better than the corporations and politicians who take my money and call me names; but not that much better.  







Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1070785 20-Jun-2014 09:56
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I've done most of these things at some point.

Here's an interesting one: my parents asked me to convert some old vinyl LPs to CDs because their turntable was on the way out.  I borrowed a turntable and started the process, which was time-consuming and didn't produce very good results.  So, in most cases I just downloaded the albums and burnt them to CDs.  Is this "worse" than the format-shifting I was trying to do (which was illegal in any case)?

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  Reply # 1070844 20-Jun-2014 11:28
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I'm taking the 5th (or whatever equivalent law exists in NZ).

My favourite one that catches most people out is have you ever recorded from broadcast TV and held onto the recording for longer than necessary to view it?  Yes and Yes

I also think it would be difficult to find many people of my generation that didn't record off the radio or copy a tape from a friend.

I think there should also be some distinction in the law between personal use and for profit.  They were called bootleggers in my day!




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  Reply # 1070933 20-Jun-2014 12:47
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freitasm:
tangerz: Answer the questions two-fold: First, do you consider it piracy? Second, do you do it/have you done it? (Give reasons/qualifications/justifications if you like!)

8- Using PAID FOR overseas TV/Movie streaming services? (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon etc.)
9- Using FREE overseas TV streaming services? (BBC iPlayer, ITV Player etc.)
10- Downloading music videos (or any videos) from YouTube?


OIf your list, #8, #9 and #10 aren't illegal. The other ones are.



I think 8 and 9 are probably illegal too, although I don't know whether it would come under criminal or civil law...

I don't think you're allowed to access (e.g.) Netflix from NZ, because Netflix shows content which IIRC Sky HBO has sole distribution rights to in NZ. I don't know whether it's you who has broken the law, or Netflix that has broken the agreement that they and Sky HBO have with the IP owners. I suspect it is likely to be you, since you have brought the material into NZ, presumably by evading the geo-locking that Netflix does.


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  Reply # 1070955 20-Jun-2014 13:15
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1- Ripping a CD borrowed from a friend? Piracy and not that I can remember
2- Ripping a hired DVD/Blu-ray? Piracy and once to see if it could be done.  My ripping skills are terrible and so was the rip so deleted it right afterwards and never tried again (with a rental).
3- Ripping a DVD/Blu-ray you have purchased? (ie for playback on a tablet/mobile phone/media server) Piracy but I feel as I own it I should be allowed to do what I like and have done this with my own dvd's and blurays but honestly wasn't very successful and I prefer small sized encodes which I've never been able to do.  So for sizes I've always deleted.
4- Downloading/torrenting the latest movie blockbuster? Piracy and can't say I've not done this before.
5- Downlaoding/torrenting the latest episode of your favourite TV show THAT PLAYS HERE ON FREEVIEW, but hasn't aired here yet? Piracy and don't watch very much FTA TV.
6- Downlaoding/torrenting an episode of a show THAT PLAYS HERE ON FREEVIEW that has already aired here? Piracy and done this too.
7- Downloading/torrenting any episode of your fovourite TV show THAT PLAYS HERE ON SKY? Like you've already stated some of the top shows are only available on Sky I don't have Sky.
8- Using PAID FOR overseas TV/Movie streaming services? (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon etc.) Not piracy and have used Netflix.
9- Using FREE overseas TV streaming services? (BBC iPlayer, ITV Player etc.) Not piracy and by this I assume you're talking about legal streaming services (as these are the only ones you've mentioned). which would be a no.
10- Downloading music videos (or any videos) from YouTube? Piracy and guilty of this too.

Please note although I would be classed legally as a priate for some of my viewing (current and past) it's probably helped me buy more content than prevented me from buying it.  If it's worth it and at a good price I'll buy it.  Have a very large collection of movies, tv shows and music I've paid for from stores, downloaded legally etc.  The fact is that people are willing to pay for things at a good price but music and movie industries seem to still think that they can gouge prices or not change with the times.

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  Reply # 1070959 20-Jun-2014 13:16
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frankv:
freitasm:
tangerz: Answer the questions two-fold: First, do you consider it piracy? Second, do you do it/have you done it? (Give reasons/qualifications/justifications if you like!)

8- Using PAID FOR overseas TV/Movie streaming services? (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon etc.)
9- Using FREE overseas TV streaming services? (BBC iPlayer, ITV Player etc.)
10- Downloading music videos (or any videos) from YouTube?


OIf your list, #8, #9 and #10 aren't illegal. The other ones are.



I think 8 and 9 are probably illegal too, although I don't know whether it would come under criminal or covol law...

I don't think you're allowed to access (e.g.) Netflix from NZ, because Netflix shows content which IIRC Sky HBO has sole distribution rights to in NZ. I don't know whether it's you who has broken the law, or Netflix that has broken the agreement that they and Sky HBO have with the IP owners. I suspect it is likely to be you, since you have brought the material into NZ, presumably by evading the geo-locking that Netflix does.



Privately, people are entitled to import movies and tv series from overseas for their own personal use provided they don't contain objectionable material (eg kiddy fiddling etc). I don't see any real difference importing a physical disc via the post or over the internet. At worst, you are breaching Netflix's terms and conditions and they may be able to cancel your subscription if they were so inclined.



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  Reply # 1070961 20-Jun-2014 13:19
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StarBlazer: I'm taking the 5th (or whatever equivalent law exists in NZ).

My favourite one that catches most people out is have you ever recorded from broadcast TV and held onto the recording for longer than necessary to view it?  Yes and Yes

I also think it would be difficult to find many people of my generation that didn't record off the radio or copy a tape from a friend.

I think there should also be some distinction in the law between personal use and for profit.  They were called bootleggers in my day!


I agree with you wholeheartedly the law states you can record and keep it for what is deemed a reasonable length of time to view it.  What is considered a reasonable length of time differs from person to person.  If you're busy you may record one show watch it a week later...not long.  If you like to block view you could be 6 months or more before you have a whole series of a show to watch and this could be considered too long.

The laws need revising and had needed it at the time they updated to change format shifting of only music.

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  Reply # 1070987 20-Jun-2014 13:52
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frankv:
freitasm:
tangerz: Answer the questions two-fold: First, do you consider it piracy? Second, do you do it/have you done it? (Give reasons/qualifications/justifications if you like!)

8- Using PAID FOR overseas TV/Movie streaming services? (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon etc.)
9- Using FREE overseas TV streaming services? (BBC iPlayer, ITV Player etc.)
10- Downloading music videos (or any videos) from YouTube?


OIf your list, #8, #9 and #10 aren't illegal. The other ones are.



I think 8 and 9 are probably illegal too, although I don't know whether it would come under criminal or civil law...

I don't think you're allowed to access (e.g.) Netflix from NZ, because Netflix shows content which IIRC Sky HBO has sole distribution rights to in NZ. I don't know whether it's you who has broken the law, or Netflix that has broken the agreement that they and Sky HBO have with the IP owners. I suspect it is likely to be you, since you have brought the material into NZ, presumably by evading the geo-locking that Netflix does.



Evading geo-block is not illegal.





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  Reply # 1070989 20-Jun-2014 13:57
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IANAL but the legal/illegal debate seems to be based on NZ law.  Given the content for steaming services is based overseas, that raises the question of where exactly the potential crime was committed.

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  Reply # 1070992 20-Jun-2014 13:59
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As before, it is no different than you buying a book overseas and bringing to New Zealand really. The local distributors might not like it but they have no recourse.





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  Reply # 1070993 20-Jun-2014 14:06
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freitasm:
frankv:
freitasm:
tangerz: Answer the questions two-fold: First, do you consider it piracy? Second, do you do it/have you done it? (Give reasons/qualifications/justifications if you like!)

8- Using PAID FOR overseas TV/Movie streaming services? (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon etc.)
9- Using FREE overseas TV streaming services? (BBC iPlayer, ITV Player etc.)
10- Downloading music videos (or any videos) from YouTube?


OIf your list, #8, #9 and #10 aren't illegal. The other ones are.



I think 8 and 9 are probably illegal too, although I don't know whether it would come under criminal or civil law...

I don't think you're allowed to access (e.g.) Netflix from NZ, because Netflix shows content which IIRC Sky HBO has sole distribution rights to in NZ. I don't know whether it's you who has broken the law, or Netflix that has broken the agreement that they and Sky HBO have with the IP owners. I suspect it is likely to be you, since you have brought the material into NZ, presumably by evading the geo-locking that Netflix does.



Evading geo-block is not illegal.

If my understanding is correct, none of the laws (citation needed) in NZ said DVD players should be region locked unlike many other countries - UK included - which to me means bypassing geo-blocking (physical media or otherwise) is allowed.  I may have misremembered this though!

IMO, Netflix US "allowing" NZ residents to view content is more likely to be a breach of contract between SKY and the rights owners which becomes an issue between the rights owners and Netflix.  I suspect that Netflix know this and that's why they are setting up in business here with their own content.  Once they are in NZ, it probably does become an issue between Netflix and SKY.

Content should be unbundled and ownership/distribution should be spilt like it is with; Telecom and Chorus, power generators and power retailers - etc.




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  Reply # 1070994 20-Jun-2014 14:06
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Privately, people are entitled to import movies and tv series from overseas for their own personal use provided they don't contain objectionable material (eg kiddy fiddling etc). I don't see any real difference importing a physical disc via the post or over the internet. At worst, you are breaching Netflix's terms and conditions and they may be able to cancel your subscription if they were so inclined.


Yeah, I agree. Except that (I assume) Netflix has a contractual agreement with their supplier that they're not allowed to distribute to NZ (to allow Sky HBO to have a monopoly in that market).

When you breach Netflix's T&Cs you are breaching your contract with them (i.e. it's illegal).

Netflix T&Cs in turn state "You may view a movie or TV show through the Netflix service only in geographic locations where we offer our service and have licensed such movie or TV show. The content that may be available to watch will vary by geographic location. Netflix will use technologies to verify your geographic location. " and "You agree to use the Netflix service, including all features and functionalities associated therewith, in accordance with all applicable laws, rules and regulations, including public performance limitations or other restrictions on use of the service or content therein." and "these Terms of Use shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the state of Delaware, U.S.A. without regard to conflict of laws provisions."

Of course, there's nothing there to limit *your* liability.

So, what tNetflix may do to punish you for breaching the contract is *not* limited to having your Netflix account cancelled. For example, you *could* be held liable for any damages that Netflix suffers, which in turn would be how much their supplier claims, which in turn would be how much Sky HBO claims to have lost through your actions, plus whatever punitive measures the state of Delaware thinks is appropriate. Possibly your ISP might disconnect you as well.

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  Reply # 1071002 20-Jun-2014 14:21
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If the entire motion picture association can't prosecute a fat german whose entire business model was built on profiting from the illegal downloading and distribution of copyright material through his servers, then I won't lose any sleep at night for breaching Ts&Cs of a private company.

For the record, as I have stated numerous times elsewhere, I own a DVD rental franchise so (for now) have a somewhat vested interest in people not going down this path, but as I myself have Netflix set up at home for the sake of convenience rather than remembering to bring something home for the night, I can readily see the appeal.

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  Reply # 1071010 20-Jun-2014 14:32
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sen8or: If the entire motion picture association can't prosecute a fat german whose entire business model was built on profiting from the illegal downloading and distribution of copyright material through his servers, then I won't lose any sleep at night for breaching Ts&Cs of a private company.


If they'd got to him *before* he had megabucks to fight them off with, it would have been a different story. And it's not over yet.

And, for the record, I'm not saying it's wrong to use Netflix, and I wouldn't lose any sleep over using it either. Just saying that you can't do it legally in NZ (i.e. it is illegal). [The law is an ass. The law is there to PAPTIOTRAP. MPAA has bought the NZ Govt. Yadda, yadda]



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