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  Reply # 1091598 18-Jul-2014 17:24
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Personally, stealing my stuff is NOT ok, but not worth killing over.

But break in violence is NOT just about stealing either. So a reasoned law on 'defence using equal force' or some such wording WOULD make sense to me... Rob me with a knife and I can't shoot you, threaten my family with lethal (gun) force and I should have every right to defend myself with equal force.

FYI: I don't own a gun, and never have, but have seen escalated violence in 'burglaries' in South Africa quickly become rape & murder and would definitely consider being armed to defend if such became common here!

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  Reply # 1091688 18-Jul-2014 19:37
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NZ has fewer aggravated (violent) burglaries where the offender is unknown to the victim than the media would have you believe. I'm not saying it does not exist but these sorts of proposed laws are just knee-jerk, electioneering crap. Reasonable force is already well defined in law here and as an example the police are subject to the exact same law, it's just they are already lawfully carrying appointments to deal with violent threats. They still have to justify their actions against the Crimes Act.

I'm not sure how they intend to define reasonable force further but it sounds like they want people to sit at home planing how to kill or injure an offender if it happens which is just ludicrous.

IMO criminals never change, they are lazy and occasionally violent people but making a law that smooths a path to the public being able to kill or maim others will not make crime go away. At all.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1091749 18-Jul-2014 20:47
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Have to disagree with the generality of your statement somewhat sdav. The majority of aggravated burglaries here are the result of:
a. gangs 'taxing' low level drug dealers and
b. domestic violence situations.

In the case of a. the taxings are carried out by persons unknown (whether they be gang members or associates) to the 'tax payer'. In the case of b. a former partner breaking into their ex's house and having a weapon with them will always result in an aggravated burglary charge.

b. happens often, but not as often as a. IME.

However - what I think you might have been alluding to (correct me if I'm wrong) is there are fewer such offences where your average Jo/Joe Bloggs is an innocent victim to a strangers violence. In the case of a. the victims are hardly innocent members of the public, the crime/s against them are targeted rather than being 'random' acts.

Edit: added missing word.

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  Reply # 1091757 18-Jul-2014 21:02
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Dratsab: 
However - what I think you might have been alluding to (correct me if I'm wrong) is there are fewer such offences where your average Jo/Joe Bloggs is an innocent victim to a strangers violence. In the case of a. the victims are hardly innocent members of the public, the crime/s against them are targeted rather than being 'random' acts.


Yeah, that's what I meant, it was a tad sweeping.

I also doubt this sort of law would stop the horrific attacks seen on the news recently (not the murder, but the beating in the liquor store)... You can't hear what was said but the owners seemed to be more than compliant and were still savagely beaten. How would that law change have stopped that situation?

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  Reply # 1091761 18-Jul-2014 21:20
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andrewNZ: On the surface, it's easy to see how people think this is a good idea, but it's just not.

Give people this right (for lack of a better term) and there is only thing that will happen. Criminals will anti up and more people will die. Either they'll take a gun where they used to take a knife, or they'll shoot when they would have just threatened.

Guns/weapons are not the answer, they are the problem.

Agree.
And its not just about rights its about responsibility as well.
Rights imply responsibility, but don't state it, and for too many folk that's all they need. ... a right. We need to state things as responsibilities to so there is no ambiguity.
I have a right to respond to a post,
and,
a responsibility to do that in a constructive and respectful way.

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  Reply # 1091764 18-Jul-2014 21:26
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Personally I'm trying to encourage one child to become an engineer so he can build large killer robots and the other to become a franken-scientist so we can create bull dogs with giant bat wings.  Then I won't need guns to defend my palace of toys from drugged up burglars. 

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  Reply # 1091812 18-Jul-2014 21:55
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This law wont be much use for practical reasons.
If firearms owners have their guns locked away like they should have (gun locked away separately from bolt and ammo), then if a firearms owner is faced with a home invasion are they going to ask the invaders to wait while you go and unlock your gun, ammo and bolt? Doesn't just go for home invasions but for dairys and liquor stores as well. 

Unless people can actually carry(I don't necessarily agree with carrying) load firearms nothing will change. 

Winston Peters appealing to certain voter groups?

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  Reply # 1091820 18-Jul-2014 22:06
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t92300: This law wont be much use for practical reasons.
If firearms owners have their guns locked away like they should have (gun locked away separately from bolt and ammo), then if a firearms owner is faced with a home invasion are they going to ask the invaders to wait while you go and unlock your gun, ammo and bolt?


I would ask them to wait while Geoffrey brings me my fighting trousers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iRTB-FTMdk) and a heavy stick.

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  Reply # 1091851 18-Jul-2014 23:27
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sidefx: Sounds like the usual ill-conceived rubbish NZ First thinks will get themselves just enough votes to get into parliament, along with the usual sensationalist coverage from NZ media.  


This.




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  Reply # 1091869 19-Jul-2014 06:53
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NZtechfreak:
sidefx: Sounds like the usual ill-conceived rubbish NZ First thinks will get themselves just enough votes to get into parliament, along with the usual sensationalist coverage from NZ media.  


This.


Not quite, next step NZF will announce a policy to stop armed ASIANS breaking into (or trying to buy) your house.

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  Reply # 1091915 19-Jul-2014 10:27
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TimA:
deadlyllama: Since when is someone stealing your stuff worth killing them over?


 Thats my problem., I wouldnt really see it fit but some would possibly. Humans are not consistent with judging. People taking these sort of things too far. Hence the lawn quote above.



And there is one of the biggest issues, as soon as you make it "acceptable" to kill another person, you have lowered to bar to the point where a lot of people WILL b killed.

If the US "system" worked you would expect lower crime, lower rates of murder, lower rates of rape, lower rates of incarceration, but no, compared to NZ you are not a little bit more likely to be murdered, raped etc in the US, you are a LOT more likely.... up to 10 times more likely.

If that is not evidence to show its failure I don't what is.

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  Reply # 1091941 19-Jul-2014 11:48
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I read somewhere that 75% of the air pollution in Chicago was bullets.



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  Reply # 1091953 19-Jul-2014 12:15
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kiwitrc: I read somewhere that 75% of the air pollution in Chicago was bullets.


*Detroit 




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  Reply # 1091958 19-Jul-2014 12:21
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kiwitrc: 

Not quite, next step NZF will announce a policy to stop armed ASIANS breaking into (or trying to buy) your house.


Well if NZF were to become openly anti-ninja AND pro-pirate they might get my party vote.

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  Reply # 1092006 19-Jul-2014 14:20
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kiwitrc:
NZtechfreak:
sidefx: Sounds like the usual ill-conceived rubbish NZ First thinks will get themselves just enough votes to get into parliament, along with the usual sensationalist coverage from NZ media.  


This.


Not quite, next step NZF will announce a policy to stop armed ASIANS breaking into (or trying to buy) your house.


I'm rather disappointed with NZ First.
They usually find a way to mention Maori Radicals or Asian Triads in their pre election scare tactics.

Not up to their usual standards.





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