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driller2000
808 posts

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  #1118663 30-Aug-2014 18:17
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networkn:
driller2000: dirty politics coming to an end is 100 per cent dependent on a change in politicians (and their associates) behaviour

it is NOT dependent on books and news media...

the fact of the matter is the sacking of collins does not change what has been alleged - and it should not be used as some sort of "ohh look we cut out the rot - now let's move on :) :) you can trust us now :) :) etc etc"

it must be investigated - and if there is proven wrongdoing then those responsible should be dealt with accordingly - AND - this sh*t has got to stop






I am wondering IF it turns out everything was on the the up and up, and investigation clears those accused, will those who instigated the investigation stand down accordingly? 




in terms of this latest matter "collins" wanted an investigation ie. to clear her name - so yeah nah...

key has already said even if she is cleared she won't be back in cabinet any time soon - as others have suggested he is keen to have her away from the limelight / damage control / to be seen to be dealing with this issue in a strong way (a little late imho given the multiple past issues) - and it is highly likely that winstons' suggestion of disloyalty on her part weighed on keys mind as well...



Fred99
11156 posts

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  #1118666 30-Aug-2014 18:22
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mattwnz:
Fred99:
mattwnz: Why should she after the Oravida thing? What did she do so wrong with that?


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9818950/Judith-Collins-comes-clean-about-dinner

If that isn't self-explanatory, then...

I'm glad to see her go.  Smug authoritarians in particular need to be squeaky-clean.  She wasn't.  Karma.


Is that a major thing though, to lose your job over?


Yes - IMO it is, but that wasn't the final straw anyway.
The time to use your position as an elected representative to feather your own nest in the world of business is after you quit politics.


 
 
 
 


mattwnz
16864 posts

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  #1118676 30-Aug-2014 18:34
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driller2000:
networkn:
driller2000: dirty politics coming to an end is 100 per cent dependent on a change in politicians (and their associates) behaviour

it is NOT dependent on books and news media...

the fact of the matter is the sacking of collins does not change what has been alleged - and it should not be used as some sort of "ohh look we cut out the rot - now let's move on :) :) you can trust us now :) :) etc etc"

it must be investigated - and if there is proven wrongdoing then those responsible should be dealt with accordingly - AND - this sh*t has got to stop






I am wondering IF it turns out everything was on the the up and up, and investigation clears those accused, will those who instigated the investigation stand down accordingly? 




in terms of this latest matter "collins" wanted an investigation ie. to clear her name - so yeah nah...

key has already said even if she is cleared she won't be back in cabinet any time soon - as others have suggested he is keen to have her away from the limelight / damage control / to be seen to be dealing with this issue in a strong way (a little late imho given the multiple past issues) - and it is highly likely that winstons' suggestion of disloyalty on her part weighed on keys mind as well...




That is not how I interpreted what he said. I believe he said that the investigation would likely take a long time, certainly well after the election, which is why she wouldn't be back in cabinet directly after the election. 

MaxLV
656 posts

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  #1118677 30-Aug-2014 18:36
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Fred99:
mattwnz:
Fred99:
mattwnz: Why should she after the Oravida thing? What did she do so wrong with that?


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9818950/Judith-Collins-comes-clean-about-dinner

If that isn't self-explanatory, then...

I'm glad to see her go.  Smug authoritarians in particular need to be squeaky-clean.  She wasn't.  Karma.


Is that a major thing though, to lose your job over?


Yes - IMO it is, but that wasn't the final straw anyway.
The time to use your position as an elected representative to feather your own nest in the world of business is after you quit politics.



I'm astounded at the assumptions so many are making in this thread that she (Collins) is the ONLY thing wrong with this government, it's election campaign, and the dirty politics it is involved in. She isn't the only one who needs to go. She's only one of many. The dirty politics goes right to Key's office and his senior advisers, and hopefully they'll (this government) all be held accountable on September 20th.  The dirty politics aren't from the opposition smearing the national party and government, it's come from their OWN dirty political behaviour, as revealed by the emails of the government and it's hangers on... 

Batman
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  #1118678 30-Aug-2014 18:37
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Not at all surprised

It was coming since the oravida scandal




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


mattwnz
16864 posts

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  #1118679 30-Aug-2014 18:37
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Fred99:
mattwnz:
Fred99:
mattwnz: Why should she after the Oravida thing? What did she do so wrong with that?


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9818950/Judith-Collins-comes-clean-about-dinner

If that isn't self-explanatory, then...

I'm glad to see her go.  Smug authoritarians in particular need to be squeaky-clean.  She wasn't.  Karma.


Is that a major thing though, to lose your job over?


Yes - IMO it is, but that wasn't the final straw anyway.
The time to use your position as an elected representative to feather your own nest in the world of business is after you quit politics.



How was she doing that though? It is normal for politicians to meet with businesses, even chinese ones.

You do have to remember that politics is a dirty game, especially during an election period, and anything that takes away from actual policies is good for opposition parties, especially when the policies aren't well detailed. That is why they don't appear to be wanting this story to go away from what I saw on the news tonight. They will want to milk it for as long as they can.

Handle9
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  #1118684 30-Aug-2014 18:50
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mattwnz:
Fred99:
mattwnz:
Fred99:
mattwnz: Why should she after the Oravida thing? What did she do so wrong with that?


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9818950/Judith-Collins-comes-clean-about-dinner

If that isn't self-explanatory, then...

I'm glad to see her go.  Smug authoritarians in particular need to be squeaky-clean.  She wasn't.  Karma.


Is that a major thing though, to lose your job over?


Yes - IMO it is, but that wasn't the final straw anyway.
The time to use your position as an elected representative to feather your own nest in the world of business is after you quit politics.



How was she doing that though? It is normal for politicians to meet with businesses, even chinese ones.

You do have to remember that politics is a dirty game, especially during an election period, and anything that takes away from actual policies is good for opposition parties, especially when the policies aren't well detailed. That is why they don't appear to be wanting this story to go away from what I saw on the news tonight. They will want to milk it for as long as they can.


Yeah but if the trip is paid for by the tax payer and your husband is a company director of Oravida it is a clear conflict of interest and misuse of government resources. It becomes a huge problem if you lie about what happened. In most large companies you would run the risk of being sacked if you didn't declare the nature of the contact as it is a conflict if interest.

 
 
 
 


networkn
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  #1118692 30-Aug-2014 19:02
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driller2000:
networkn:
driller2000: dirty politics coming to an end is 100 per cent dependent on a change in politicians (and their associates) behaviour

it is NOT dependent on books and news media...

the fact of the matter is the sacking of collins does not change what has been alleged - and it should not be used as some sort of "ohh look we cut out the rot - now let's move on :) :) you can trust us now :) :) etc etc"

it must be investigated - and if there is proven wrongdoing then those responsible should be dealt with accordingly - AND - this sh*t has got to stop






I am wondering IF it turns out everything was on the the up and up, and investigation clears those accused, will those who instigated the investigation stand down accordingly? 




in terms of this latest matter "collins" wanted an investigation ie. to clear her name - so yeah nah...

key has already said even if she is cleared she won't be back in cabinet any time soon - as others have suggested he is keen to have her away from the limelight / damage control / to be seen to be dealing with this issue in a strong way (a little late imho given the multiple past issues) - and it is highly likely that winstons' suggestion of disloyalty on her part weighed on keys mind as well...




I was actually referring to the whole dirty politics thing. Make no mistake, a LOT of taxpayer money will be spent on it. 

Fred99
11156 posts

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  #1118698 30-Aug-2014 19:15
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networkn:
driller2000:
networkn:
driller2000: dirty politics coming to an end is 100 per cent dependent on a change in politicians (and their associates) behaviour

it is NOT dependent on books and news media...

the fact of the matter is the sacking of collins does not change what has been alleged - and it should not be used as some sort of "ohh look we cut out the rot - now let's move on :) :) you can trust us now :) :) etc etc"

it must be investigated - and if there is proven wrongdoing then those responsible should be dealt with accordingly - AND - this sh*t has got to stop






I am wondering IF it turns out everything was on the the up and up, and investigation clears those accused, will those who instigated the investigation stand down accordingly? 




in terms of this latest matter "collins" wanted an investigation ie. to clear her name - so yeah nah...

key has already said even if she is cleared she won't be back in cabinet any time soon - as others have suggested he is keen to have her away from the limelight / damage control / to be seen to be dealing with this issue in a strong way (a little late imho given the multiple past issues) - and it is highly likely that winstons' suggestion of disloyalty on her part weighed on keys mind as well...




I was actually referring to the whole dirty politics thing. Make no mistake, a LOT of taxpayer money will be spent on it. 


If that's the price of transparent democracy, then we shouldn't be complaining.

gzt

gzt
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  #1118699 30-Aug-2014 19:20
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Does anyone heard the leak source of the emails? Like everyone else I know the recipients and the sender, but the leaker in this case I have not heard.

mattwnz
16864 posts

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  #1118701 30-Aug-2014 19:24
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gzt: Does anyone heard the leak source of the emails? Like everyone else I know the recipients and the sender, but the leaker in this case I have not heard.

 3 News had a lot of information on it tonight on the news. They said it maybe related in a some way to the finance company investigations several years ago, as they showed one of the emails from a computer screen with links to articles on it.

In the old days before emails, you just did everything over the phone, so there was no tracking or paper trails. Today it is a bit of a nightmare with the quantity of information now out there.

networkn
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  #1118702 30-Aug-2014 19:30
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If that's the price of transparent democracy, then we shouldn't be complaining.


In this instance perhaps, but generally those in opposition call for a lot of enquiries which are stupid and frivolous. 

gzt

gzt
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#1118704 30-Aug-2014 19:32
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mattwnz:
gzt: Does anyone heard the leak source of the emails? Like everyone else I know the recipients and the sender, but the leaker in this case I have not heard.

 3 News had a lot of information on it tonight on the news. They said it maybe related in a some way to the finance company investigations several years ago, as they showed one of the emails from a computer screen with links to articles on it.

In the old days before emails, you just did everything over the phone, so there was no tracking or paper trails. Today it is a bit of a nightmare with the quantity of information now out there.

Ah that's true. There is one unnamed redacted recipient. If that rec is within the SFO, then you're right it's a possible source.


mattwnz
16864 posts

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  #1118705 30-Aug-2014 19:35
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Handle9:
mattwnz:
Fred99:
mattwnz:
Fred99:
mattwnz: Why should she after the Oravida thing? What did she do so wrong with that?


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9818950/Judith-Collins-comes-clean-about-dinner

If that isn't self-explanatory, then...

I'm glad to see her go.  Smug authoritarians in particular need to be squeaky-clean.  She wasn't.  Karma.


Is that a major thing though, to lose your job over?


Yes - IMO it is, but that wasn't the final straw anyway.
The time to use your position as an elected representative to feather your own nest in the world of business is after you quit politics.



How was she doing that though? It is normal for politicians to meet with businesses, even chinese ones.

You do have to remember that politics is a dirty game, especially during an election period, and anything that takes away from actual policies is good for opposition parties, especially when the policies aren't well detailed. That is why they don't appear to be wanting this story to go away from what I saw on the news tonight. They will want to milk it for as long as they can.


Yeah but if the trip is paid for by the tax payer and your husband is a company director of Oravida it is a clear conflict of interest and misuse of government resources. It becomes a huge problem if you lie about what happened. In most large companies you would run the risk of being sacked if you didn't declare the nature of the contact as it is a conflict if interest.


When you are married to someone who is involved with a company you visit, that doesn't mean there is a conflict of interest. 

When people go on trips to other countries for business meetings, it is normal for them to also use that trip as an opportunity to meet with third parties during that trip. How many people meet family or friends on their trips when they go away on business? Did the taxpayer face extra costs due to those third party meetings, as she was their already? I think the main  issue identified was that she didn't disclose that meeting, but would people who meet other parties on business trips normally disclose those meetings to a business, unless asked?

They thing is that I believe politicians get 90% flight subsidies anyway, so they could make another trip privately, and that would cost the taxpayer more, than if they combine the trips. 

gzt

gzt
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  #1118719 30-Aug-2014 19:38
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Good questions but this is the government of nz it's a bit different.

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