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sir1963
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  #1119274 1-Sep-2014 07:32
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mattwnz: In a way I am surprised that elections are able to be allowed to be rerailed like this.  No one is talking about policies, which is what opposition parties want.


Its hardly the first time. Bob Jones did a wonderful job derailing the 1984 election

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Party


DravidDavid
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  #1119327 1-Sep-2014 09:04
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JimmyH: About time.

Now hopefully the election can get back to a focus on policies and what the different parties propose to do if you vote for them. The stuff that actually matters for making a voting decision.

LOL

mattwnz: In a way I am surprised that elections are able to be allowed to be rerailed like this.  No one is talking about policies, which is what opposition parties want.

That is not exactly an accident.  Policies aren't entertaining.  If you've seen the trailer for the most recent debate on TV3, you will understand.

Instead of over-viewing each of the leader's views and policies, the media criticises either party for not coming up with a good enough one-liner to destroy the other.  How shallow is that?  I don't know how anyone could trust them to deliver informative unbiased news and information to the general public, but so many do. :(

 
 
 
 


Geektastic
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  #1119333 1-Sep-2014 09:12
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DravidDavid:
JimmyH: About time.

Now hopefully the election can get back to a focus on policies and what the different parties propose to do if you vote for them. The stuff that actually matters for making a voting decision.

LOL

mattwnz: In a way I am surprised that elections are able to be allowed to be rerailed like this.  No one is talking about policies, which is what opposition parties want.

That is not exactly an accident.  Policies aren't entertaining.  If you've seen the trailer for the most recent debate on TV3, you will understand.

Instead of over-viewing each of the leader's views and policies, the media criticises either party for not coming up with a good enough one-liner to destroy the other.  How shallow is that?  I don't know how anyone could trust them to deliver informative unbiased news and information to the general public, but so many do. :(


So true.

You have only to look at the shallow comics that pass for 'newspapers' here to see that.





gnfb
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  #1119368 1-Sep-2014 09:47
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I rarely follow Kiwi politics but it has hard to miss the avalanche that the nationals seem to be facing. Who is it that the Labour bought in to wage the war? He or she is doing a great job and there timing is impeccable. Correct me if I am wrong (i know you will) but it seems that nationals are on the back foot with no real counter attack. A couple more body blows and could they lose the election?




Is an English Man living in New Zealand. Not a writer, an Observer he says. Graham is a seasoned 'traveler" with his sometimes arrogant, but honest opinion on life. He loves the Internet!.

 

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DravidDavid
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  #1119374 1-Sep-2014 09:57
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gnfb: I rarely follow Kiwi politics but it has hard to miss the avalanche that the nationals seem to be facing. Who is it that the Labour bought in to wage the war? He or she is doing a great job and there timing is impeccable. Correct me if I am wrong (i know you will) but it seems that nationals are on the back foot with no real counter attack. A couple more body blows and could they lose the election?


I don't think they will loose regardless of what happens.  The most popular colour in the world is blue, followed by red, followed by green.

...Wait, this situation seems awfully familiar.

Seakiwi
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  #1119385 1-Sep-2014 10:15
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gnfb: I rarely follow Kiwi politics but it has hard to miss the avalanche that the nationals seem to be facing. Who is it that the Labour bought in to wage the war? He or she is doing a great job and there timing is impeccable. Correct me if I am wrong (i know you will) but it seems that nationals are on the back foot with no real counter attack. A couple more body blows and could they lose the election?


Not making any accusations, but, hasn't Matt McCarten been very quiet as Labour's Chief of Staff, never known him to be so quiet ...............

trig42
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  #1119386 1-Sep-2014 10:16
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They certainly are taking some blows, and Hager has got more than he dared to dream from his book (which he is probably making a fortune on, dirty little capitalist ;) ).

Hopefully, policies do come back to the fore (though with the 'quality' of journalism from NZs main purveyors, I doubt it - muck sells).

National have got the country though a Financial crisis (and an Earthquake or two) in pretty good shape IMO, they should be able to really start paying debt down in the next three years to leave the country in good shape for the Red/Greens to take over and spend it all again. If Labour Greens Hone and WInston take over on September 20th, that debt will stay untouched, and will even increase IMO as they pay for all their lollies, argue amongst themselves and take theirs hands off the wheel.

Obviously, my Party Vote tick is staying with National.

 
 
 
 


MikeB4
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  #1119388 1-Sep-2014 10:17
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Seakiwi:
gnfb: I rarely follow Kiwi politics but it has hard to miss the avalanche that the nationals seem to be facing. Who is it that the Labour bought in to wage the war? He or she is doing a great job and there timing is impeccable. Correct me if I am wrong (i know you will) but it seems that nationals are on the back foot with no real counter attack. A couple more body blows and could they lose the election?


Not making any accusations, but, hasn't Matt McCarten been very quiet as Labour's Chief of Staff, never known him to be so quiet ...............


He does not need to do much National are self destructing.

Geektastic
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  #1119401 1-Sep-2014 10:38
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trig42: They certainly are taking some blows, and Hager has got more than he dared to dream from his book (which he is probably making a fortune on, dirty little capitalist ;) ).

Hopefully, policies do come back to the fore (though with the 'quality' of journalism from NZs main purveyors, I doubt it - muck sells).

National have got the country though a Financial crisis (and an Earthquake or two) in pretty good shape IMO, they should be able to really start paying debt down in the next three years to leave the country in good shape for the Red/Greens to take over and spend it all again. If Labour Greens Hone and WInston take over on September 20th, that debt will stay untouched, and will even increase IMO as they pay for all their lollies, argue amongst themselves and take theirs hands off the wheel.

Obviously, my Party Vote tick is staying with National.


I'd give them both ticks.

Just in case. Must stop the Red Tide.





jonathan18
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  #1119416 1-Sep-2014 10:51
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So depressing to see this thread, just like many others before it, going down the plug-hole and turning into the same self-satisified, self-righteous, non-critical morass. i have no problem discussing and debating issues when the participants are somewhat informed and the comments informing (no matter the politics of those involved), but too often we end up in the same place with the same people pushing the same barrel. I guess the answer is it would be better for my health if I just didn't read these threads on GZ!

networkn
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  #1119420 1-Sep-2014 10:54
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jonathan18: So depressing to see this thread, just like many others before it, going down the plug-hole and turning into the same self-satisified, self-righteous, non-critical morass. i have no problem discussing and debating issues when the participants are somewhat informed and the comments informing (no matter the politics of those involved), but too often we end up in the same place with the same people pushing the same barrel. I guess the answer is it would be better for my health if I just didn't read these threads on GZ!


Well to be fair, you have no trouble pushing these barrels in the discussions you have participated in as well :) 


MikeB4
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  #1119421 1-Sep-2014 10:54
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jonathan18: So depressing to see this thread, just like many others before it, going down the plug-hole and turning into the same self-satisified, self-righteous, non-critical morass. i have no problem discussing and debating issues when the participants are somewhat informed and the comments informing (no matter the politics of those involved), but too often we end up in the same place with the same people pushing the same barrel. I guess the answer is it would be better for my health if I just didn't read these threads on GZ!


wow, how to insult a group in one hit. How many FUG rules fractured with one post

trig42
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  #1119443 1-Sep-2014 11:16
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jonathan18: So depressing to see this thread, just like many others before it, going down the plug-hole and turning into the same self-satisified, self-righteous, non-critical morass. i have no problem discussing and debating issues when the participants are somewhat informed and the comments informing (no matter the politics of those involved), but too often we end up in the same place with the same people pushing the same barrel. I guess the answer is it would be better for my health if I just didn't read these threads on GZ!

 

Wow, so I'm guessing that some people's opinions do not match yours? Are you not pushing a barrel also?
One enters an online forum topic that has a political title, one should expect that it will contain stuff one does not agree with.

jonathan18
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  #1119462 1-Sep-2014 11:42
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Look, I'm not wanting to tar all participants with the same brush - indeed, all these types of threads do have input from a range of people from different perspectives that contribute meaningfully to the discussion. I enjoy these aspects.

My point is that some contributors have a tendency to revert to a "vote for x", "all xrs are evil" type of approach, which doesn't contribute to the the discussion in any meaningful way. We already know these basic views, so how do they add to our understanding of the issue under discussion?

Yes, I have been vocal in these threads, but I have generally been very careful to not push my own politics as part of this discussion, and have indeed clearly argued these discussions do not need to be so clearly framed by one's own political beliefs. What I see too far often is a knee-jerk reaction to defend the political party one supports, whatever the evidence or significance of the issue. Or to put forward the defence "everyone's doing' it", which, even if correct, doesn't make it right.

I believe all political figures need to be held to account for their actions, whether I support their policies or not. It just happens to be that National, as the incumbent, is in the firing line. While I don't believe anything of the scale set out in Hager's book* does occur on the other side of the political spectrum, if evidence came to light that it was occuring I'd be of the same view. I get quite depressed that a majority of NZers don't seem to share the same critical principles and can dismiss matters that are important about the future of democracy in NZ simply on the basis of their own beliefs.


* Which, by the way, I have read, whereas some seem to argue an understanding of these matters can somehow be held by ignoring the book and its contents as the deluded rantings of a "left-wing conspiracy theorist".

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