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BarTender
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  #1119801 1-Sep-2014 18:13
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networkn: Actually I was NOT trying to change the topic, I was trying to point out that THIS topic and the political discussion around it, isn't really news compared to other stuff that is happening in NZ.


So start a new topic and talk about it there, otherwise if you don't think it's worth talking about in this thread then I hope there isn't anyone compelling you to reply.

networkn: You don't need to claim innocence in NZ, it's a presumption, therefore in the absence of a claim, you are presumed innocent, something I don't see you willing to provide National or Collins. 

FYI I am not claiming her innocence with my comments either.

The bottom line for me, is that even if every allegation is true, it doesn't warrant unseating a government over. I believe I would feel the same way regardless of who was in power.


Whereas I respectfully disagree with you here. I think it does speak of serious corruption that has it roots in the inner circle of the national government.

In my personal opinion it's very important to talk about when corruption is so blatant, you don't think it is worth talking about. Sad indictment on the importance of democracy IMHO.

Plus it's obvious that certain right wing reporters would prefer it to all just go away. Sadly there is far too much information available now that it's pretty hard to ignore it.
 




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testha
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  #1119913 1-Sep-2014 20:06


Whereas I respectfully disagree with you here. I think it does speak of serious corruption that has it roots in the inner circle of the national government.

In my personal opinion it's very important to talk about when corruption is so blatant, you don't think it is worth talking about. Sad indictment on the importance of democracy IMHO.

Plus it's obvious that certain right wing reporters would prefer it to all just go away. Sadly there is far too much information available now that it's pretty hard to ignore it.
 


There is a name for this kind of behavior you are describing: cognitive dissonance.

 
 
 
 


gzt

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  #1120128 1-Sep-2014 23:59
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One interesting thing about this whole sequence of events is that even the original emails starting this whole thing off have not been said to be verified.

However, I presume Key was able to verify Collins's email about the public servant (first guy) - before calling it 'unwise' - by using archives or maybe he just asked Collins to verify it and she did.

Then the next one about the SFO director. Collins was only mentioned in it and not even a recipient. How was it known to be even a real email? Yet this is the one she was asked to resign on, and it was acted on immediately. It makes little sense to me. So my personal feeling on that, it looks like pleading guilty to a lesser charge. Which is a bad comparison because she is still proclaiming innocence. Again, no word on verification of this email by anyone, but imho some verification must have taken place.

So we implicitly trust those are correct vis trusting/expecting the Prime Minister to have verified those in some way before commenting or there is something worse which is known related but not yet public.

Now we are up to the latest one which is not email but Facebook messages.

Both Collins and Slater say they "have no record" of these facebook conversations and both are outright calling it fake. I assume criminal charges over some matter of the above issues would have to be laid to lead to a legal request to Facebook for any archives. In any case it could well be fake or close enough to it (ie; a genuine hacked conversation but not actually Collins.)

So it looks to me like the first two have been verified by some means or other. But this recent one about the Facebook messages is anyone's guess so far.

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  #1120392 2-Sep-2014 11:42
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^Gah. Posted the wrong link last night.

This morning it appears the Herald has verified several other Facebook conversations in the stuff they were provided. The prime minister has already kicked off one enquiry based on other messages (email), so I assume he will include these as well.

Updated article from this morning:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11317550

BarTender
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  #1122733 5-Sep-2014 20:13
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Found an interesting pastebin today.

All the pages that WhaleOil have removed from this page since the 18th of August.

Thankfully the internet archive still exists: https://web.archive.org

Nothing to hide right?




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JayADee
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  #1122901 6-Sep-2014 07:57
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BarTender: Found an interesting pastebin today.

All the pages that WhaleOil have removed from this page since the 18th of August.

Thankfully the internet archive still exists: https://web.archive.org

Nothing to hide right?


Thanks, that's interesting.

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