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Topic # 151662 1-Sep-2014 14:26
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With what has happened today http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10446709/Live-Police-hunt-gunman-in-Ashburton  and all the similar tragedies in recent past , I am in the belief that NZ gun laws could do with a lot of updating. I am kind of sick about hearing these sorts of stories and how they keep happening.  I believe NZ has one of the biggest gun ownership rates in the world, but it is relatively easy for people to get a license. I believe laser ownership is now even more restricted than gun ownership.  What are other peoples thoughts?

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gzt

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  Reply # 1119625 1-Sep-2014 14:28
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Ok, let's stick to gun laws in this topic.

mattwnz, what exactly are you proposing and how do you believe the current gun laws contributed to this tragedy?

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  Reply # 1119627 1-Sep-2014 14:32
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From my limited understanding, things are pretty strict here.

My dad has owned guns for ever and my brother is a competitive shooter and both have had to jump through hoops over the years to get and retain gun licenses. Getting a license even includes a visit to your house from the Police and background checks on things like history of violence, repeated drug and alcohol problems etc...

There will always be the odd person who has access to guns and has the ability and motivation to commit crimes like this.



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  Reply # 1119632 1-Sep-2014 14:35
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Consider the civilians own estimated over 1.1 million guns in NZ 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_New_Zealand

I'd say the current system is pretty solid. Any law changes only really affect law abiding citizens.

$5 says most gun crimes are committed by ppl not holding a current firearm license.

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  Reply # 1119633 1-Sep-2014 14:35
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is not it a nightmare to get gun licence in NZ, already?




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  Reply # 1119634 1-Sep-2014 14:35
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Guns don't kill people, people kill people.




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  Reply # 1119642 1-Sep-2014 14:50
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What this offender did was illegal already, I'm not sure how any changes to the law would prevent it, though I'm all ears for ideas?




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  Reply # 1119646 1-Sep-2014 15:00
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mattwnz: With what has happened today http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10446709/Live-Police-hunt-gunman-in-Ashburton  and all the similar tragedies in recent past , I am in the belief that NZ gun laws could do with a lot of updating. I am kind of sick about hearing these sorts of stories and how they keep happening.  I believe NZ has one of the biggest gun ownership rates in the world, but it is relatively easy for people to get a license. I believe laser ownership is now even more restricted than gun ownership.  What are other peoples thoughts?


Simple answer: NO

Long answer:  Honestly, I think we should be thankful that we don't have organizations like (well, as bad as) the NRA in NZ, there are plenty of valid reasons for shotguns to be owned by New Zealanders, hunting, pest control, recreation.  If you asked people that own guns why they own them, unlike other countries, I'd say "because I want to" and/or "self-defence"  would be very low on the list.

Additionally, gun licensing for things like pistols (I'm pretty sure all handguns require one of 2 additional endorsements (depends on if they are as a collection or not)), is quite strict, it's only shotguns etc that have the more lax licensing requirements and even then, there is:  Safety courses, interviews, inspections etc required.

Yes, there is illegally owned firearms in NZ, but I think if you tried restricting it further you'd run the risk of illegal guns becoming more popular and you'll start seeing people that have understandable uses for guns, going before the courts.

Additionally:  I think there ARE some flaws in the licensing system though, the safety course that is a prequel to applying for a license is mainly (or all) theory based, considering the number of hunting accidents, I can't help but wonder if there needs to be more done, i.e something practical to:   Make sure people know how to handle a gun properly, transport it properly (remember that guy that walked down Queen Street with his shotgun over his shoulder after getting it fixed/something, to catch the ferry????), know how to accurately identify targets - considering how popular VR development is becoming, something that could easily be done in a year or two.

Also my understanding is that there are some license holders that have never done the safety course (my parents spring to mind), and considering people that have, never have to again, maybe they should be looking into making a refresher mandatory.

Of course, nothing would've prevented the incident today I reckon, reading http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11317351 I actually feel sorry for the guy (the fact that he felt that it had to come to this, I don't excuse his final actions).

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  Reply # 1119647 1-Sep-2014 15:01
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It's like the AntiSmacking Bill. Those who commit the most serious of crimes don't stop to think about the consequences before doing it, or don't care about the consequences so more laws restricting it won't work.

This coming from someone generally in favour of more gun laws.



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  Reply # 1119652 1-Sep-2014 15:14
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scuwp: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.


Except when the gun accidentally goes off and kills someone. The same could be said for lasers, the lasers are perfectly safe if used right, except for the small percentage of fools who shine them up at planes. I mean in today's environment why do people need a gun, unless you live in a rural environment and need to kill pests or livestock, or for sport. But someone in an urban environment shouldn't really need a gun nor store it within an urban environment. For sporting use, they could be stored at the sporting facility. The problem is that there is 1 gun for every 4 people in NZ so there would probably be some pretty heavy lobbying against any changes.



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  Reply # 1119660 1-Sep-2014 15:21
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nigelj:
mattwnz: With what has happened today http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10446709/Live-Police-hunt-gunman-in-Ashburton  and all the similar tragedies in recent past , I am in the belief that NZ gun laws could do with a lot of updating. I am kind of sick about hearing these sorts of stories and how they keep happening.  I believe NZ has one of the biggest gun ownership rates in the world, but it is relatively easy for people to get a license. I believe laser ownership is now even more restricted than gun ownership.  What are other peoples thoughts?


Simple answer: NO

Long answer:  Honestly, I think we should be thankful that we don't have organizations like (well, as bad as) the NRA in NZ, there are plenty of valid reasons for shotguns to be owned by New Zealanders, hunting, pest control, recreation.  If you asked people that own guns why they own them, unlike other countries, I'd say "because I want to" and/or "self-defence"  would be very low on the list.

Additionally, gun licensing for things like pistols (I'm pretty sure all handguns require one of 2 additional endorsements (depends on if they are as a collection or not)), is quite strict, it's only shotguns etc that have the more lax licensing requirements and even then, there is:  Safety courses, interviews, inspections etc required.

Yes, there is illegally owned firearms in NZ, but I think if you tried restricting it further you'd run the risk of illegal guns becoming more popular and you'll start seeing people that have understandable uses for guns, going before the courts.

Additionally:  I think there ARE some flaws in the licensing system though, the safety course that is a prequel to applying for a license is mainly (or all) theory based, considering the number of hunting accidents, I can't help but wonder if there needs to be more done, i.e something practical to:   Make sure people know how to handle a gun properly, transport it properly (remember that guy that walked down Queen Street with his shotgun over his shoulder after getting it fixed/something, to catch the ferry????), know how to accurately identify targets - considering how popular VR development is becoming, something that could easily be done in a year or two.

Also my understanding is that there are some license holders that have never done the safety course (my parents spring to mind), and considering people that have, never have to again, maybe they should be looking into making a refresher mandatory.

Of course, nothing would've prevented the incident today I reckon, reading http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11317351 I actually feel sorry for the guy (the fact that he felt that it had to come to this, I don't excuse his final actions).


I would be for far more stringent and regular testing and more background checks. Possibly also make any gun owner legally responsible for any crimes committed if someone else gains access to the gun. This would make people far less likely to lend it to another and to keep it securely locked away.

I feel people use the argument that guns don't kill people, people do, as a bit of an excuse. They use the same argument for cars, in that cars don't kill people it is the drivers. But deaths from cars has been mitergated over the years with safer cars and better policing and stricter laws. We also need cars for our economy. In most part we don't need guns except in the previously identified cases.

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  Reply # 1119664 1-Sep-2014 15:24
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Guns serve many purpose. For some its their recreation, for others its part of their job.

Look at China where you can't even get a gun. Crazies ran around railway station with knives that killed more people than this guy did.

If you want to avoid tragedies then you need to identify the problem people. It's like terrorism - intelligence is much better than just building a bomb wall around every building.





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  Reply # 1119666 1-Sep-2014 15:27
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mattwnz:
scuwp: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.


Except when the gun accidentally goes off and kills someone. The same could be said for lasers, the lasers are perfectly safe if used right, except for the small percentage of fools who shine them up at planes. I mean in today's environment why do people need a gun, unless you live in a rural environment and need to kill pests or livestock, or for sport. But someone in an urban environment shouldn't really need a gun nor store it within an urban environment. For sporting use, they could be stored at the sporting facility. The problem is that there is 1 gun for every 4 people in NZ so there would probably be some pretty heavy lobbying against any changes.


The lasers are a bit of a different story, if I recall the high powered ones - the ones that cause the most damage - are only illegal to import/own unless you have a license (and demonstrate the need).  It was far too easy/legal for someone to import a laser that was say 5x more powerful that anyone could ever need for 'just fun/playing around' (or even as a laser pointer).

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  Reply # 1119667 1-Sep-2014 15:31
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I think the ability to lawfully conceal carry a firearm should be allowed in this country at the very least.  It should be strict as hell, but we should be able to do it.  Family from military/ex-police backgrounds conceal carry illegally already.  They and many others have been doing it for years without an issue.  One has only ever considered drawing on his pistol once however he decided against it as he felt the situation could be diffused by other means.  SANE non-violent people are capable of making proper decisions.  However, if the other violent person had a firearm and was willing to use it, where would that have left the good guy?  CQB does not always cut it!

I don't see any reason why someone shouldn't be able to legally carry a concealed firearm.  This kind of situation could have been diffused before any shots by the criminal were fired.
A few years ago I would have totally disagreed with conceal carrying a firearm, but times are changing...Some people are crazy, and I'd rather not be the one worse off in a deadly situation and would deal with whatever consequences this pussyfoot government could dish out any day.

Even if this shooter is caught, he will get 6 months in prison and 12 months home detention because of some "mental condition" his lawyer cooked up.

By the way, I highly recommend basic martial arts training or techniques in disarming an attacker.  It could mean life or death and it keeps you fit.  It still won't do you much good bringing fists to a gun fight at long range.





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  Reply # 1119678 1-Sep-2014 15:37
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Maybe all types of motor vehicles should be banned.

Afterall, they kill more innocent people than anything else in New Zealand.

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  Reply # 1119679 1-Sep-2014 15:37
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DravidDavid:
Even if this shooter is caught, he will get 6 months in prison and 12 months home detention because of some "mental condition" his lawyer cooked up.


This is the most disturbing bit for me. We need far tougher penalties for these things. 




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