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gzt

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  Reply # 1121152 3-Sep-2014 14:03
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This topic started out as does nz need better gun laws in relation to the ashburton winz shootings.

Currently (above) there is a conversation about concealed carry. Concealed carry makes sense in some part from an individual point of view. The other side of that coin is putting more guns on the streets and in homes.

I can guarantee that course of action will take more innocent lives that it will save.

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  Reply # 1121158 3-Sep-2014 14:12
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mattwnz:
heylinb4nz: 

A punch or a stab can just as much kill you as a gunshot....the law needs to recognize this and focus on the initiator of the attack and the intention behind it....not the weapons used.


That's not true, a gun shot is far more likely to kill you than a punch or a stabbed. Also it depends where you are shot or stabbed or punched, but rarely will a punch kill you, unless it is exactly in a weak area of the body. A gunshot in many parts of the body however could kill you, especially in areas that will suffer high blood loss.  Also the infection from a gun wound and shot can kill you over time, espeically if the bullet is in a very difficult area to be removed. 

The fact is if we don't have any easily accessible guns, then we would have less of these type so shootings. The crazies have to get their guns from somewhere, they can't make them.


NZ never really had a problem to begin with (nor does it currently)...The media dredges up 100 years history and come up with less than 10 shooting examples...id say its a non issue compared to our other problems as a nation.

On lethality the only things a gun has over knifes is velocity and range. At close ranges a knife is far more lethal and convienient in the sense

 

a) it doesnt run out of ammo
b) blade profile is wider than any bullet

 

c) clean cuts vs ragged (harder to stop bleeding)
d) deep penetration

 

e) concealability
f) disposability

 

g) availability
h) its silent

In fact for criminal use a knife is far more ideal. 


Whilst a single punch may not kill you, once you are unconcious and being kicked to death that's another issue. Far more people in NZ have been killed with punches, kicks, stabs and blunt objects in USA, England and Europe than firearms.



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  Reply # 1121159 3-Sep-2014 14:16
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gzt: This topic started out as does nz need better gun laws in relation to the ashburton winz shootings.

Currently there is a conversation about concealed carry. Concealed carry makes sense in some part from an individual point of view. The other side of that coin is putting more guns on the streets and in homes.

I can guarantee that course of action will take more innocent lives that it will save.


Yes I believe it would too. But under some peoples arguments, that it is people that kill, not the guns, it shouldn't. But I don't agree with this. If guns are in easy access, then they will be used, as many people don't think before they act. Getting rid of guns altogether expect for where they are actually 'needed' would also help, and make it a restricted activity, like with high power lasers, would I suspect drive down the risk of these type of massacres occurring. It doesn't really make sense that high powered lasers are banned, thus they are more restricted than guns, and you don't even need a license to get a high powered air rifle.

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  Reply # 1121163 3-Sep-2014 14:26
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mattwnz:
The fact is if we don't have any easily accessible guns, then we would have less of these type so shootings. The crazies have to get their guns from somewhere, they can't make them.

guns are not easily accessible in NZ - for law abiding citizens. criminals will always get their hands on guns, machetes and other weapons, new law or not.

sooner or later. they can make them.

putting aside 3d printing, if there is a demand, there will be supply. countless attempt to smuggle contact nt into NZ each year, guess how much easier it's to smuggle some innocent "steel pipes" or "machinery" then assemble a gun here.

our ancestors made guns with much simpler tooling and limited knowledge, and they seemed to work for their purposes.

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  Reply # 1121164 3-Sep-2014 14:28
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gzt: This topic started out as does nz need better gun laws in relation to the ashburton winz shootings.

Currently (above) there is a conversation about concealed carry. Concealed carry makes sense in some part from an individual point of view. The other side of that coin is putting more guns on the streets and in homes.

I can guarantee that course of action will take more innocent lives that it will save.


 

Depends really even with our current rate of ownership 250,000 people, accidental (non hunting) deaths are super low. And we dont have licensed people going on killing sprees. 

 

A CCW permit is not a license to kill and doesnt automatically mean people will resort to blowing away someone over a minor disagreement, even in a rare self defense situation shots may not even be fired (no one dies but crime is averted).

 

If you can cut though all the bullcrap in USA (gang killings, suicide, misuse etc) and view the CCW crowd in isolation its a safe and effective tool for preventing victims and responding to crimes against non CCW holders.

 


Allowing criminals to tool up like wolves and us act as sheep is not going to achieve anything.

 

If they allowed it in NZ (pigs fly) then I would expect

 

a) only approved gear would be allowed

 

b) person would need to have been a B licence holder for minimum 2 years & retain it for CCW status

 

c) 6 monthly training (1/2 day) + pass to retain

 

d) 2 yearly physc evaluation

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  Reply # 1121168 3-Sep-2014 14:32
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heylinb4nz:
If they allowed it in NZ (pigs fly) then I would expect a) only approved gear would be allowed b) person would need to have been a B licence holder for minimum 2 years & retain it for CCW status c) 6 monthly training (1/2 day) + pass to retain d) 2 yearly physc evaluation

essentially armed civilian "wardens".

that won't happen until every cop carry 3 guns in bullet proof vests and still not enough to deter daily violent crimes.

I genuinely hope the pigs never fly.

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  Reply # 1121169 3-Sep-2014 14:35
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mattwnz:
gzt: This topic started out as does nz need better gun laws in relation to the ashburton winz shootings.

Currently there is a conversation about concealed carry. Concealed carry makes sense in some part from an individual point of view. The other side of that coin is putting more guns on the streets and in homes.

I can guarantee that course of action will take more innocent lives that it will save.


Yes I believe it would too. But under some peoples arguments, that it is people that kill, not the guns, it shouldn't. But I don't agree with this. If guns are in easy access, then they will be used, as many people don't think before they act. Getting rid of guns altogether expect for where they are actually 'needed' would also help, and make it a restricted activity, like with high power lasers, would I suspect drive down the risk of these type of massacres occurring. It doesn't really make sense that high powered lasers are banned, thus they are more restricted than guns, and you don't even need a license to get a high powered air rifle.


By that way of thinking we would confiscate cars from people that didnt really need them (use a bloody bike). Cars kill over 300 people a year in NZ and destroy the environment. You live 10 kms from work ? get up early and walk.

No one needs alcohol, its a drug, and causes massive death and social destruction in NZ.

 

Guns on the other hand in NZ harm very few people, they control pests that destroy our environment, they provide the greenest  food you cant buy, they promote social interaction and sportsmanship though clubs and associations, they keep a large number of people employed.

Cut the emotion out, stop watching Hollywood action movies and citing USA examples.

 

NZ is perfectly fine and responsible with its guns...we have bigger issues that need our attention.

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  Reply # 1121173 3-Sep-2014 14:38
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hangon:
heylinb4nz:
If they allowed it in NZ (pigs fly) then I would expect a) only approved gear would be allowed b) person would need to have been a B licence holder for minimum 2 years & retain it for CCW status c) 6 monthly training (1/2 day) + pass to retain d) 2 yearly physc evaluation

essentially armed civilian "wardens".

that won't happen until every cop carry 3 guns in bullet proof vests and still not enough to deter daily violent crimes.

I genuinely hope the pigs never fly.




Warden in your view, id like to think if I was armed and capable that if I saw a fellow human being in trouble that I could aid them...or at least be responsible for my own safety in the rare event I needed to defend myself.

Its not about being wardens or wannabe cops, its about having the ability to not become a victim...or at least improve your odds.

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  Reply # 1121175 3-Sep-2014 14:40
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heylinb4nz: 

Cut the emotion out, stop watching Hollywood action movies and citing USA examples. NZ is perfectly fine and responsible with its guns...we have bigger issues that need our attention.


totally agree so lets stop talking about concealed weapons then.




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  Reply # 1121178 3-Sep-2014 14:42
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hangon:
mattwnz:
The fact is if we don't have any easily accessible guns, then we would have less of these type so shootings. The crazies have to get their guns from somewhere, they can't make them.

guns are not easily accessible in NZ - for law abiding citizens. criminals will always get their hands on guns, machetes and other weapons, new law or not.

sooner or later. they can make them.

putting aside 3d printing, if there is a demand, there will be supply. countless attempt to smuggle contact nt into NZ each year, guess how much easier it's to smuggle some innocent "steel pipes" or "machinery" then assemble a gun here.

our ancestors made guns with much simpler tooling and limited knowledge, and they seemed to work for their purposes.


Actually not so hard as you would think, knowing how NZ system works its relatively easy for a smart person with a computer to obtain A-cat stuff (rifles and shotguns) via mailorder.

 

I raised this with my local Arms Officer and he snubbed me saying that the guys in Wellington know all the tricks and are actively plugging those holes....

Trust me they havent.

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  Reply # 1121179 3-Sep-2014 14:45
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jeffnz:
heylinb4nz: 

Cut the emotion out, stop watching Hollywood action movies and citing USA examples. NZ is perfectly fine and responsible with its guns...we have bigger issues that need our attention.


totally agree so lets stop talking about concealed weapons then.


:) Agree :)

We should shift focus to problems with current laws

 

a) holes in the A-Cat system (safe storage, mailorder, licencing)
b) unecessary guff in the Bcat\Ecat system (permits, importing, use outside of range)
c) the whole what constitutes an MSSA and why its a non issue that police need to let go

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  Reply # 1121202 3-Sep-2014 15:32
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heylinb4nz:
sdav:
DravidDavid: And if you are a hunter, your target isn't always stationary either, haha :)  I don't hunt, but moving around targets shooting at them as quick as possible gets the blood pumping and adrenalin runs high. 


I've resisted staying out of this thread... All I want to say is that is not a good pro gun example.


Only because you are using emotional stereotyping based on the drivel that media feeds you. You assume he is fantasizing about killing innocent people with a gun or pre-tending to be a spec ops operator. Is it unreasonable to think that someone might just enjoying the skill and thrill of target shooting and competing in a sport against other athletes ? does it matter what equipment he uses ? Then there is all the other unseen aspects of target shooting like equipment setup, reloading, muscle memory training, speed and agility training.....things that don't involve firing off live ammo.         


You could have not missed my point more if you tried which is why I am staying out of this thread. Using hunters as an argument for how great they are at target identification and accuracy is a poor example.

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  Reply # 1121209 3-Sep-2014 15:40
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sdav:
heylinb4nz:
sdav:
DravidDavid: And if you are a hunter, your target isn't always stationary either, haha :)  I don't hunt, but moving around targets shooting at them as quick as possible gets the blood pumping and adrenalin runs high. 


I've resisted staying out of this thread... All I want to say is that is not a good pro gun example.


Only because you are using emotional stereotyping based on the drivel that media feeds you. You assume he is fantasizing about killing innocent people with a gun or pre-tending to be a spec ops operator. Is it unreasonable to think that someone might just enjoying the skill and thrill of target shooting and competing in a sport against other athletes ? does it matter what equipment he uses ? Then there is all the other unseen aspects of target shooting like equipment setup, reloading, muscle memory training, speed and agility training.....things that don't involve firing off live ammo.         


You could have not missed my point more if you tried which is why I am staying out of this thread. Using hunters as an argument for how great they are at target identification and accuracy is a poor example.

I'm afraid you also completely missed the mark if you think I was trying to make an example out of hunters for the target ID and accuracy.

 

Someone suggested that target shooting was simply standing still with stationary targets after arguing hitting a moving target is harder (which is true) but somehow ended up as an argument against self defense.  This could not be further from the truth.  Hunters shoot moving animals, target shooters move around targets for competition.  I don't see how you could possibly think I was making a "pro gun" statement considering either activity is done is a controlled environment for sport, just like any other sport as heylinb4nz has previously stated.

...But since you mention it, I bet a deer hunter is far better at hitting a moving target with a rifle than I am, because that is what he enjoys doing.





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  Reply # 1121236 3-Sep-2014 16:12
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  Reply # 1121240 3-Sep-2014 16:18
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sdav:
heylinb4nz:
sdav:
DravidDavid: And if you are a hunter, your target isn't always stationary either, haha :)  I don't hunt, but moving around targets shooting at them as quick as possible gets the blood pumping and adrenalin runs high. 


I've resisted staying out of this thread... All I want to say is that is not a good pro gun example.


Only because you are using emotional stereotyping based on the drivel that media feeds you. You assume he is fantasizing about killing innocent people with a gun or pre-tending to be a spec ops operator. Is it unreasonable to think that someone might just enjoying the skill and thrill of target shooting and competing in a sport against other athletes ? does it matter what equipment he uses ? Then there is all the other unseen aspects of target shooting like equipment setup, reloading, muscle memory training, speed and agility training.....things that don't involve firing off live ammo.         


You could have not missed my point more if you tried which is why I am staying out of this thread. Using hunters as an argument for how great they are at target identification and accuracy is a poor example.


Actually considering the amount of people doing it year in year out accidental deaths are low, in fact more people die or are injured doing non firearms related sports \ activities.

 

On the target shooting thing, pistol shooters (and also 3gun) shoot at mixture of stationary and moving targets (whilst also on the move).

Added to that they also have complusory reloads, are marked on speed, accuracy, and also can be disqualified for any number of minor infractions (dropping gun, finger on trigger during a mag change, unsafe holstering, not clearing between gun changes).

I would say that they are under even more pressure \ workload than police officers who's training consists of draw, empty mag into stationary target at 5M ranges. 

Make no mistake, NZ Police are woefully undertrained even for target shooting purposes...let alone attending to and responding to armed incidents.

 

Id rather my local competition shooter came to my aid thanks...vs a snotty nosed cop fresh out of training college and a giant superiority complex. (yes these type of police exist and we give them guns).

 

 

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