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gzt

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  Reply # 1122170 4-Sep-2014 21:34
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That much name calling is not normal here on Geekzone.

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  Reply # 1122228 4-Sep-2014 23:03
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gzt: That much name calling is not normal here on Geekzone.


I apologize.....I have spent far to much time on GPforums.

I must say the conversations here are alot more civil and balanced. I will keep that in mind for future posts.

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  Reply # 1122244 5-Sep-2014 01:06
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heylinb4nz: 
You are a fool to think that its even worth an individual challenging anything they do, they have your tax $$$ and unlimited legal time at their disposal. Even if a firearms owner wanted to challenge they would not have the cash or would soon run out.  


Not a fool, just someone that takes a different approach and who, after over twenty years of doing so, knows what works and what doesn't. In order to be heard on these issues it's necessary to remain civil, objective, and to be prepared to consider all the arguments. Going head to head with police or politicians over gun laws achieves nothing. Being able to work within the system in a cool, considered manner and to build strong arguments based on law and research gets you heard. 
I've challenged both parliament and the police. I've stood up in city council chambers and presented arguments that persuaded them to leave gun laws to central government. For many years I created & ran the only site anywhere that gave every bit of information anyone could possibly want to know about NZ firearms laws. The police used to refer people to my site and it was listed in official publications. So what I hear you say - so, my approach was to build relationships and get two-way conversation going. I was never "pro gun", I was "pro the right for law-abiding firearms owners to own and use firearms free from unnecessary legal burdens". 
So, yes, I think it's worth an individual challenging anything they disagree with. The alternative is to rant at a system you are not trying to change or to roll over and accept whatever impositions get put on your right to own and use firearms. 

 We can agree to disagree on approaches but I do challenge, submit, arrange meetings with police and politicians to discuss issues, and don't sit back saying its not worth trying. If that makes me a fool then, hello! fool here, because I will never sit quietly for anyone to undermine my rights. 

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  Reply # 1122293 5-Sep-2014 08:08
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Elpie - just a quick note here - from a long time target shooter and occasional small-game hunter - thanks for your work and positive approach to voicing concerns and representing the rights of firearms owners. It sounds like you've helped present a rational case for many others like me, and assisted my sport in being seen in a positive light. I greatly appreciate your work.




Cheers,
Mike

Photographer/Videographer clickmedia.nz


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  Reply # 1122319 5-Sep-2014 09:24
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heylinb4nz:
gzt: That much name calling is not normal here on Geekzone.


I apologize.....I have spent far to much time on GPforums.

I must say the conversations here are a lot more civil and balanced. I will keep that in mind for future posts.


that would be a good idea especially given you are new to Geekzone and all you have done is force your opinion on others with more emotion than fact. Fair enough you are passionate about it but that doesn't mean you are right and others wrong.

I don't pretend to know or understand NZ gun law as I have long since got rid of all the firearms I used to have (legally) my only concern would be enthusiasts with their own interests change laws that will have a huge effect on others. To me it isn't broken just needs tweeks what they are I'll leave that to the rational ones like Elpie to promote.



Edit: spelling




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  Reply # 1122327 5-Sep-2014 09:33
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I was a long time Sport shooter and did a lot of hunting, however disability ended all that, however I believe NZ has changed a lot since then, there is no where near the places in our small country to go hunting safely especially the North Island. Also there seems to be a lot of wanna-be toy soldiers getting hands on high powered rifles and think every thing is a target for them to blast away at.
I believe the whole private ownership of guns from BB Guns to high powered sporting kit needs a thorough review to reflect NZ as it is now and will be in a few years. That may well mean a lot more restriction on types imported, the general availability, usage and storage. It would be interesting to see what results a referendum would throw on this topic.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1122346 5-Sep-2014 09:49
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KiwiNZ: I was a long time Sport shooter and did a lot of hunting, however disability ended all that, however I believe NZ has changed a lot since then, there is no where near the places in our small country to go hunting safely especially the North Island. Also there seems to be a lot of wanna-be toy soldiers getting hands on high powered rifles and think every thing is a target for them to blast away at.
I believe the whole private ownership of guns from BB Guns to high powered sporting kit needs a thorough review to reflect NZ as it is now and will be in a few years. That may well mean a lot more restriction on types imported, the general availability, usage and storage. It would be interesting to see what results a referendum would throw on this topic.


The problem we have as shooters is the majority of public are uneducated in firearms, and of course we know the police view on them. Any referendum would result in more bad law and mandate for police to enforce the restrictions they seek (most of which are unfair and not based on anything but their desire to erode firearms ownership in NZ).

Realistically we just need Police to talk with and listen to groups like Pistol NZ, SSANZ, Deerstalkers Assc etc etc. Rather than go off on their own tangent and make bad law.

Even if hunting is reduced to nothing, we still have pistol clubs and long range rifle clubs. Firearms technology is advancing in materials, features and design, it doesnt mean the guns are getting more high powered....and more military like....(thus needing restriction)..they use the same ammo they always have....if anything they are getting more safer.

Id like to see them combine the B & E cats to an R cat licence and simplfy the permitting process. If they really want to track what is being purchased, they can simply have an online system which issues a unique permit ID valid for 60 days that customs can reference when any item comes into the border.

as for A-cats, the licence should have a safety \ competency test as well as the exam, and the storage requirements need to be lifted to the same as B\E cat.

Then the police can focus on the criminals.

 




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  Reply # 1122356 5-Sep-2014 10:15
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Firearm laws do not prevent criminal behaviour.  When I did my firearms training the police showed us pictures of improvised homemade guns they had confiscated.  Most of them made from simple unregulated materials.  As long as criminals can access ammo, they will find a way to make firearms.

The checks on people getting a firearm in NZ are thorough, and the police err on the side of caution.  The requirements for gun storage could do with being beefed up for the more common firearms like shotguns and hunting rifles.

BTW Switzerland has one of the highest rates of guns in households and a very low rate of firearm crime/death.  Why? Training, respect for safety.




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  Reply # 1122359 5-Sep-2014 10:18
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heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ: I was a long time Sport shooter and did a lot of hunting, however disability ended all that, however I believe NZ has changed a lot since then, there is no where near the places in our small country to go hunting safely especially the North Island. Also there seems to be a lot of wanna-be toy soldiers getting hands on high powered rifles and think every thing is a target for them to blast away at.
I believe the whole private ownership of guns from BB Guns to high powered sporting kit needs a thorough review to reflect NZ as it is now and will be in a few years. That may well mean a lot more restriction on types imported, the general availability, usage and storage. It would be interesting to see what results a referendum would throw on this topic.


The problem we have as shooters is the majority of public are uneducated in firearms, and of course we know the police view on them. Any referendum would result in more bad law and mandate for police to enforce the restrictions they seek (most of which are unfair and not based on anything but their desire to erode firearms ownership in NZ).

Realistically we just need Police to talk with and listen to groups like Pistol NZ, SSANZ, Deerstalkers Assc etc etc. Rather than go off on their own tangent and make bad law.

Even if hunting is reduced to nothing, we still have pistol clubs and long range rifle clubs. Firearms technology is advancing in materials, features and design, it doesnt mean the guns are getting more high powered....and more military like....(thus needing restriction)..they use the same ammo they always have....if anything they are getting more safer.

Id like to see them combine the B & E cats to an R cat licence and simplfy the permitting process. If they really want to track what is being purchased, they can simply have an online system which issues a unique permit ID valid for 60 days that customs can reference when any item comes into the border.

as for A-cats, the licence should have a safety \ competency test as well as the exam, and the storage requirements need to be lifted to the same as B\E cat.

Then the police can focus on the criminals.



In a democracy everyone has a say, this is  a decision all New Zealanders should be involved in. 

The Police need only to listen to the Government, Crown Law and the Courts with regards to the implementation of current law. 

My personal view is all private use of firearms should be at approved clubs, the weapons only used and stored there. The general sale of firearms in retail stores stooped and only approved club outlets can import and sell on indent. 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1122397 5-Sep-2014 10:49
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KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ: I was a long time Sport shooter and did a lot of hunting, however disability ended all that, however I believe NZ has changed a lot since then, there is no where near the places in our small country to go hunting safely especially the North Island. Also there seems to be a lot of wanna-be toy soldiers getting hands on high powered rifles and think every thing is a target for them to blast away at.
I believe the whole private ownership of guns from BB Guns to high powered sporting kit needs a thorough review to reflect NZ as it is now and will be in a few years. That may well mean a lot more restriction on types imported, the general availability, usage and storage. It would be interesting to see what results a referendum would throw on this topic.


The problem we have as shooters is the majority of public are uneducated in firearms, and of course we know the police view on them. Any referendum would result in more bad law and mandate for police to enforce the restrictions they seek (most of which are unfair and not based on anything but their desire to erode firearms ownership in NZ).

Realistically we just need Police to talk with and listen to groups like Pistol NZ, SSANZ, Deerstalkers Assc etc etc. Rather than go off on their own tangent and make bad law.

Even if hunting is reduced to nothing, we still have pistol clubs and long range rifle clubs. Firearms technology is advancing in materials, features and design, it doesnt mean the guns are getting more high powered....and more military like....(thus needing restriction)..they use the same ammo they always have....if anything they are getting more safer.

Id like to see them combine the B & E cats to an R cat licence and simplfy the permitting process. If they really want to track what is being purchased, they can simply have an online system which issues a unique permit ID valid for 60 days that customs can reference when any item comes into the border.

as for A-cats, the licence should have a safety \ competency test as well as the exam, and the storage requirements need to be lifted to the same as B\E cat.

Then the police can focus on the criminals.



In a democracy everyone has a say, this is  a decision all New Zealanders should be involved in. 

The Police need only to listen to the Government, Crown Law and the Courts with regards to the implementation of current law. 

My personal view is all private use of firearms should be at approved clubs, the weapons only used and stored there. The general sale of firearms in retail stores stooped and only approved club outlets can import and sell on indent. 


- So a farmer who wants to do pest control would have to drive to a local club everytime he wanted to kill a rabbit or posseum ? then drive it back ?.
- How would it work for small communities without clubs ?
- Whats the risk of having so many guns in one place. what level of security needed (Hamilton pistol club has 600 members, you are talking about 2000+ guns ?
- You would put hundreds of hunting\gun\sports stores out of business and make people unemployed ? how is that good ?
- All this to prevent how many gun deaths per year ?

 

Sorry but this is one reason we DONT want the majority of NZ involved, because that is when we come up with crazy rules made by people that dont understand, such as the ones you are suggesting.

As for democracy in NZ, its a joke when you consider who the political parties report to and are funded by, and the fact we can have a referendum they dont even have to follow it. Majority rule \ democracy means nothing.

We are mere tax payers to fund their rise to power and pay off the bank loans they took to get there...nothing more

Government in NZ (police included), will simply do what they have always done....mainly ignore the people and slowly erode what little rights we have left.

 

 

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  Reply # 1122401 5-Sep-2014 10:54
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There are agencies that do pest control in an organised method shooting has proven to be totally useless at it. The Military store their weapons when not in use in very secure magazines so the model is already available.

If you don't believe we have a democracy here  try living in some of the non democratic nations, your view will soon change.

As for the Gun shops, things change we once had hundreds of Blacksmiths, have very few now, same with Video Libraries, Corner Service Stations, Meat works etc etc . 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1122403 5-Sep-2014 10:57
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We have lots of guns in NZ but I think the core reason we don't have much firearm violence compared to the likes of the USA is because we have good support for people with mental issues, a justice system which is lenient enough to not encourage crime to be committed with guns and lastly because the welfare state provides support so people don't need to be "gang-banging" to survive.

The likes of what happened in Ashburton is just a tragedy which is unavoidable, we should just be thankful we don't have many like it.





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  Reply # 1122407 5-Sep-2014 11:00
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MikeAqua: Firearm laws do not prevent criminal behaviour.  When I did my firearms training the police showed us pictures of improvised homemade guns they had confiscated.  Most of them made from simple unregulated materials.  As long as criminals can access ammo, they will find a way to make firearms.

The checks on people getting a firearm in NZ are thorough, and the police err on the side of caution.  The requirements for gun storage could do with being beefed up for the more common firearms like shotguns and hunting rifles.

BTW Switzerland has one of the highest rates of guns in households and a very low rate of firearm crime/death.  Why? Training, respect for safety.


They do offer a false sense of safety to non firearms people, while eroding the legitimate use of them by the law abiding.

I liken it to me riding a bike and having no need or care for a car, in fact I feel very unsafe riding my bike on the road, cars kill so many people in NZ.

Im going to form a lobby group and force all sorts of laws on car owners so I can feel safe....eventually I will get to my goal of a complete ban but first lets make some ground rules for cars.

 

- car owners need to pay $3000 a year for a licence
- they need to take a annual drivers test
- they can only drive cars with 1.6L NA engines
- they will be limited to 60kmh top speed
- they cant have any sporty bodykits..if they do they need a special licence
- all cars to be stored in a compound and people have to sign them out
- you need a licence to buy petrol, and you can only buy 91
- you need a permit for all car parts
- black cars are totally banned as they are classed as Assualt Cars

Sounds silly but this is what alot of people suggest is forced on gun owners....some of this stuff actually is.

 

 

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  Reply # 1122408 5-Sep-2014 11:04
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heylinb4nz: Some examples of bad law\police procedure we as firearms owners have to deal with   a) we need a permit to import a front or rear sight because they class it as a part, but you can buy in NZ without a permit. Sights dont even have serial numbers so what are they trying to track \ prevent ? b) I can order a foregrip from overseas for my A-cat rifle, paintball gun, airsoft gun......but if I intend to use it on my pistol or carbine, I need a permit, again if I buy in NZ I dont need anything.

c) my AR15 with a fixed stock is classed as A-cat, the same AR15 with adjustable stock is E-cat (regardless of magazine size) Simply being in possession of a compatible stock is cause for prosecution, even if I had something it could legally fit on....they still get you for intention.

d) I can buy 30 round mags if I want legally, but cant legally fit them to an A-cat rifle (making an MSSA)....see point a) yet I need a permit for something as inane as a front sight. Duh !!!

e) If I want to run a 20 round mag on my A-cat Ruger 10/22 I need to sign it up as an E-Cat. If I sell the mag, and then want to sell the rifle..I can only sell it as an E-Cat (the change is permenant)..even though the same rifle can be brought as an A-cat in the shop. 

f) a pistol shooter had to attend a pistol club 12 times a year to keep their licence and jump through many hoops to gain their licence and permits galore to buy a handgun, the owner of a A-Cat dragunov sniper rifle (7.62 caliber) simply needs a basic firearms licence, rudimentary storage and doesnt need to belong to any shooting association.  


Obviously the police have to much time on their hands and are certainly focusing on the wrong people and things.


That is the ridiculous thing about the E cat rules.

A .223 cal AR 15 in A cat form is exactly identical in "power" as one with say an adjustable stock that is E cat.

Changing the stock alters nothing about the actual capability of the gun.

It's as stupid as banning automatic opening pocket knives. If I have one with thumbstuds I can open in 1 second and another identical blade with an auto mechanism opening it with a spring that opens in 1 second the "dangerousness" of the two is identical. The blades are the same and so is the handle. Yet one is legal and one not.

Or banning knives with double edges. Coz it makes them twice as dangerous…not.

Where's the logic in any of this?!





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  Reply # 1122409 5-Sep-2014 11:05
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KiwiNZ: There are agencies that do pest control in an organised method shooting has proven to be totally useless at it. The Military store their weapons when not in use in very secure magazines so the model is already available.

If you don't believe we have a democracy here  try living in some of the non democratic nations, your view will soon change.

As for the Gun shops, things change we once had hundreds of Blacksmiths, have very few now, same with Video Libraries, Corner Service Stations, Meat works etc etc . 


Obviously trolling :)

You realise the sheer cost to do pest control on all the farmland in NZ, you ever owned a farm or done pest control ? preventing farmers from being able to readily take care of these pests will be detrimental to both the farming industry and also the environment.

 

RE: military storage, yeah we have how many in NZ ? and how much did they cost to build ? not a effective model sorry.

Lastly Google "democracy is a lie" and have a read, you'll find that democracy is not all its cracked up to be. 


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