Does NZ need better gun laws?

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656 posts

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#1122413 5-Sep-2014 11:08

Geektastic:
heylinb4nz: Some examples of bad law\police procedure we as firearms owners have to deal with a) we need a permit to import a front or rear sight because they class it as a part, but you can buy in NZ without a permit. Sights dont even have serial numbers so what are they trying to track \ prevent ? b) I can order a foregrip from overseas for my A-cat rifle, paintball gun, airsoft gun......but if I intend to use it on my pistol or carbine, I need a permit, again if I buy in NZ I dont need anything.

c) my AR15 with a fixed stock is classed as A-cat, the same AR15 with adjustable stock is E-cat (regardless of magazine size) Simply being in possession of a compatible stock is cause for prosecution, even if I had something it could legally fit on....they still get you for intention.

d) I can buy 30 round mags if I want legally, but cant legally fit them to an A-cat rifle (making an MSSA)....see point a) yet I need a permit for something as inane as a front sight. Duh !!!

e) If I want to run a 20 round mag on my A-cat Ruger 10/22 I need to sign it up as an E-Cat. If I sell the mag, and then want to sell the rifle..I can only sell it as an E-Cat (the change is permenant)..even though the same rifle can be brought as an A-cat in the shop.

f) a pistol shooter had to attend a pistol club 12 times a year to keep their licence and jump through many hoops to gain their licence and permits galore to buy a handgun, the owner of a A-Cat dragunov sniper rifle (7.62 caliber) simply needs a basic firearms licence, rudimentary storage and doesnt need to belong to any shooting association.

Obviously the police have to much time on their hands and are certainly focusing on the wrong people and things.

That is the ridiculous thing about the E cat rules.

A .223 cal AR 15 in A cat form is exactly identical in "power" as one with say an adjustable stock that is E cat.

Changing the stock alters nothing about the actual capability of the gun.

It's as stupid as banning automatic opening pocket knives. If I have one with thumbstuds I can open in 1 second and another identical blade with an auto mechanism opening it with a spring that opens in 1 second the "dangerousness" of the two is identical. The blades are the same and so is the handle. Yet one is legal and one not.

Or banning knives with double edges. Coz it makes them twice as dangerous…not.

Where's the logic in any of this?!

No logic...just emotion, lack of logic and personal agenda.

- Firearms owners will always use logic when coming up with good law

- Non owners will use emotion

- Politicians listen to non owners (majority) and police...and rarely use logic.

- Police simply dont want us to have guns and will gladly implement (and even suggest) to politicians what they want.

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MikeB4

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#1122428 5-Sep-2014 11:13

heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ: There are agencies that do pest control in an organised method shooting has proven to be totally useless at it. The Military store their weapons when not in use in very secure magazines so the model is already available.

If you don't believe we have a democracy here try living in some of the non democratic nations, your view will soon change.

As for the Gun shops, things change we once had hundreds of Blacksmiths, have very few now, same with Video Libraries, Corner Service Stations, Meat works etc etc .

Obviously trolling :)

You realise the sheer cost to do pest control on all the farmland in NZ, you ever owned a farm or done pest control ? preventing farmers from being able to readily take care of these pests will be detrimental to both the farming industry and also the environment. RE: military storage, yeah we have how many in NZ ? and how much did they cost to build ? not a effective model sorry.

Lastly Google "democracy is a lie" and have a read, you'll find that democracy is not all its cracked up to be.

Shooting possums and Rabbits with Rifles is like squashing one or two cockroaches per day, they will multiply faster than shot can eliminate them. Mass elimination from poison drops is the most effective way to date of dealing with them. I once did an exercise on a Santoft farm where did a rabbit count on three paddocks, We then spent two weeks doing a shooting cull and at the end did a count over a few days on the same paddocks, the actual numbers had gone up so we had wasted our time and our Fiocchi ammunition.

heylinb4nz

656 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1122429 5-Sep-2014 11:13

Zeon: We have lots of guns in NZ but I think the core reason we don't have much firearm violence compared to the likes of the USA is because we have good support for people with mental issues, a justice system which is lenient enough to not encourage crime to be committed with guns and lastly because the welfare state provides support so people don't need to be "gang-banging" to survive.

The likes of what happened in Ashburton is just a tragedy which is unavoidable, we should just be thankful we don't have many like it.

Big part to is our attitudes towards safety and being easy going kiwis. Americans have been brainwashed and socially damaged by successive governments and their media, they have had fear drummed into them. Combine this with a market awash with cheap guns and you get what we see in the USA.

I guess we should actually be thankful as firearm owners here that we have way less BS laws than USA and can use and own things that USA need all sorts of federal permits and licencing for. ie Supressors and SBRs (short barrel rifles), high cap mags...to name a few.

heylinb4nz

656 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1122433 5-Sep-2014 11:18

KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ: There are agencies that do pest control in an organised method shooting has proven to be totally useless at it. The Military store their weapons when not in use in very secure magazines so the model is already available.

If you don't believe we have a democracy here try living in some of the non democratic nations, your view will soon change.

As for the Gun shops, things change we once had hundreds of Blacksmiths, have very few now, same with Video Libraries, Corner Service Stations, Meat works etc etc .

Obviously trolling :)

You realise the sheer cost to do pest control on all the farmland in NZ, you ever owned a farm or done pest control ? preventing farmers from being able to readily take care of these pests will be detrimental to both the farming industry and also the environment. RE: military storage, yeah we have how many in NZ ? and how much did they cost to build ? not a effective model sorry.

Lastly Google "democracy is a lie" and have a read, you'll find that democracy is not all its cracked up to be.

Shooting possums and Rabbits with Rifles is like squashing one or two cockroaches per day, they will multiply faster than shot can eliminate them. Mass elimination from poison drops is the most effective way to date of dealing with them. I once did an exercise on a Santoft farm where did a rabbit count on three paddocks, We then spent two weeks doing a shooting cull and at the end did a count over a few days on the same paddocks, the actual numbers had gone up so we had wasted our time and our Fiocchi ammunition.

Cant eat them if you poison them.

Different farms different results, my inlaws have near eliminated rabbits from one kiwi fruit orchard, and halfed the peacock population. Then there is the whole social \ bonding aspect of going out with your father in law for a long walk (occasionally interuppted by a rabbit).

There is alot more to guns than just violence. Socially (in NZ) they most likely do more good than harm.....come out to Hamilton pistol club one Wednesday night and meet a bunch of really great people from all walks of life.

MikeB4

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#1122439 5-Sep-2014 11:25

The vast majority of Rabbits I have shot were not edible, Hares are too tough but I admit they were fun especially if one whistled loudly . As for Possum they are just disease ridden. That was all a bygone era that should be assigned to the history books.

heylinb4nz

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Ultimate Geek
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#1122453 5-Sep-2014 11:34

KiwiNZ: The vast majority of Rabbits I have shot were not edible, Hares are too tough but I admit they were fun especially if one whistled loudly . As for Possum they are just disease ridden. That was all a bygone era that should be assigned to the history books.

There is still the social aspect...if theft is the main concern then simply bump up storage to what it should be anyway...then we can all feel safe and have our cake and eat it.

MikeB4

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#1122459 5-Sep-2014 11:43

The storage is easy, its the rest of it that worries the heck out of me, there is just too many unsuitable people with firearms, the proliferation of them and the changing NZ just make it no longer a safe to keep things as they are. A good example of what I am getting at, we were recently in the Mount Holdsworth area with our 4x4 to take photos we were approx 200 meters from the picnic area and some gumboot was blasting away with what sounded like at a 308.

heylinb4nz

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Ultimate Geek
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#1122463 5-Sep-2014 11:46

KiwiNZ: The storage is easy, its the rest of it that worries the heck out of me, there is just too many unsuitable people with firearms, the proliferation of them and the changing NZ just make it no longer a safe to keep things as they are. A good example of what I am getting at, we were recently in the Mount Holdsworth area with our 4x4 to take photos we were approx 200 meters from the picnic area and some gumboot was blasting away with what sounded like at a 308.

AGree there, clubs dont have those problems

Sidestep

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#1123960 8-Sep-2014 01:02

KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ: There are agencies that do pest control in an organised method shooting has proven to be totally useless at it. The Military store their weapons when not in use in very secure magazines so the model is already available.

If you don't believe we have a democracy here try living in some of the non democratic nations, your view will soon change.

As for the Gun shops, things change we once had hundreds of Blacksmiths, have very few now, same with Video Libraries, Corner Service Stations, Meat works etc etc .

Obviously trolling :)

You realise the sheer cost to do pest control on all the farmland in NZ, you ever owned a farm or done pest control ? preventing farmers from being able to readily take care of these pests will be detrimental to both the farming industry and also the environment. RE: military storage, yeah we have how many in NZ ? and how much did they cost to build ? not a effective model sorry.

Lastly Google "democracy is a lie" and have a read, you'll find that democracy is not all its cracked up to be.

Shooting possums and Rabbits with Rifles is like squashing one or two cockroaches per day, they will multiply faster than shot can eliminate them. Mass elimination from poison drops is the most effective way to date of dealing with them. I once did an exercise on a Santoft farm where did a rabbit count on three paddocks, We then spent two weeks doing a shooting cull and at the end did a count over a few days on the same paddocks, the actual numbers had gone up so we had wasted our time and our Fiocchi ammunition.

I'd agree that generally a 1080 drop or similar is generally a more effective way to eliminate pests.
Sometimes shooting is the only way.
In the late 1980's I spent my 'gap year' working for Lands and Survey (which was morphing into DOC)
Part of our work was animal control, mainly feral goats in the central North island.
They were often mixed in with stock on the farms. Pen trapping (which they quickly became wary of) and shooting them out were the only options. We stayed in huts out the back of farm blocks, shot through crates of ammunition.
It was a worthwhile, and eye opening experience, like living in a Barry Crump novel. Taught me that guns are very much a tool in rural new zealand rather than a plaything, gave me huge respect for the fragility, beauty, and uniqueness of NZ's native bush.
New Zealand's gun laws aren't perfect, but reflect that in spite of ongoing urbanisation we're still a rural nation, living on the farmer's back.. They may be inconsistent regarding what accessories are banned or the rules around certain classifications, but that's just fluff around the edges.
There are always going to be violent people. People with mental health issues, drug and alcohol abusers, who'll use weapons (whether guns, knives or garden forks) to hurt others.
The key is prevention, intervention and community involvement, rather than more restrictive laws.
I, and almost all my rural neighbors own a gun. I use it to knock off the occasional homekill, rabbit, possum or pig. I also have a tractor, ute and car. They're all dangerous in the wrong hands, but essential parts of a rural life in NZ.

(edit- spelling)

Elpie

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#1124434 8-Sep-2014 15:44

Sidestep:
There are always going to be violent people. People with mental health issues, drug and alcohol abusers, who'll use weapons (whether guns, knives or garden forks) to hurt others.
The key is prevention, intervention and community involvement, rather than more restrictive laws.
I, and almost all my rural neighbors own a gun. I use it to knock off the occasional homekill, rabbit, possum or pig. I also have a tractor, ute and car. They're all dangerous in the wrong hands, but essential parts of a rural life in NZ.

This.

It's all been said now.

Geektastic

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#1124444 8-Sep-2014 15:53

KiwiNZ: The storage is easy, its the rest of it that worries the heck out of me, there is just too many unsuitable people with firearms, the proliferation of them and the changing NZ just make it no longer a safe to keep things as they are. A good example of what I am getting at, we were recently in the Mount Holdsworth area with our 4x4 to take photos we were approx 200 meters from the picnic area and some gumboot was blasting away with what sounded like at a 308.

However, you

a) Don't actually know what it was - could have been a bird scarer

b) Don't know it wasn't a DoC employee or licenced person controlling pests according to instructions he had been given

and so on.

People make assumptions.

The most idiotic is the common implication in the press that certain kinds of rifle are more 'high powered' than others, when the 'power' comes from the round inserted in the rifle and has sweet FA to do with the rifle itself. A 223 AR15 has no more 'power' than my 223 Weatherby varmint rifle - as both fire the same round.

Duddyx5

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#1124448 8-Sep-2014 15:57

no one can predict how someone will use a gun in the future no matter how tight the gun laws are

MikeB4

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#1124450 8-Sep-2014 15:59

Geektastic:
KiwiNZ: The storage is easy, its the rest of it that worries the heck out of me, there is just too many unsuitable people with firearms, the proliferation of them and the changing NZ just make it no longer a safe to keep things as they are. A good example of what I am getting at, we were recently in the Mount Holdsworth area with our 4x4 to take photos we were approx 200 meters from the picnic area and some gumboot was blasting away with what sounded like at a 308.

However, you

a) Don't actually know what it was - could have been a bird scarer

b) Don't know it wasn't a DoC employee or licenced person controlling pests according to instructions he had been given

and so on.

People make assumptions.

The most idiotic is the common implication in the press that certain kinds of rifle are more 'high powered' than others, when the 'power' comes from the round inserted in the rifle and has sweet FA to do with the rifle itself. A 223 AR15 has no more 'power' than my 223 Weatherby varmint rifle - as both fire the same round.

Of course DOC staff will discharge firearms with in 200 meters of a picnic ground that had several families with children

Elpie

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#1124456 8-Sep-2014 16:03

KiwiNZ:
Of course DOC staff will discharge firearms with in 200 meters of a picnic ground that had several families with children

I've seen it happen. As long as the firearm is used correctly and safely and fired in a direction that is safe, the actual discharging of it near a picnic ground is no problem. However, for PR, if it was DoC or any other agency they should have had a sign up alerting people to the activity in the area. People are rather twitchy about hearing guns (me included, if I don't know the circumstances under which it is being fired).

dickytim

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#1124761 9-Sep-2014 06:24

kobiak: is not it a nightmare to get gun licence in NZ, already?

legally...yes.

Illegally it is quite easy if you know the right (or wrong) people.

I was in Australia when the Port Author massacre happened, the government decided that destroying all semi automatic weapons was the answer to an idiot with an UNREGISTERED firearm going on a rampage.

In the end the law abiding citizens lost their pride and joy, while the criminals still had their guns.

The government turned the tragedy into a circus by implementing a knee-jerk law that they knew couldn't have even possible stopped it from happening.

Thank goodness NZ is a lot smarter than Australia.

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