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  Reply # 1119854 1-Sep-2014 19:09
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I don't think these shootings help with our reputation overseas with being the safest country in the world to visit. I went to school with someone who was a shooter in one of the big massacres, and he seemed perfectly normal when I knew him, so even mental state of mind isn't necessarily a sign that you can mitigate the problem by finding the people before the commit the crime. Someone may just snap one day.

 

I think drugs play a big part in these things, as they can totally change a person. But drugs are perhaps a bigger problem that maybe too big to fix. But if these drug users and crazies don't have the guns to access, the amount of problems they can cause is reduced.

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  Reply # 1119867 1-Sep-2014 19:18
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networkn:
sir1963:
mattwnz: With what has happened today http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10446709/Live-Police-hunt-gunman-in-Ashburton  and all the similar tragedies in recent past , I am in the belief that NZ gun laws could do with a lot of updating. I am kind of sick about hearing these sorts of stories and how they keep happening.  I believe NZ has one of the biggest gun ownership rates in the world, but it is relatively easy for people to get a license. I believe laser ownership is now even more restricted than gun ownership.  What are other peoples thoughts?


Well the BIG difference between the USA and NZ is attitude.

New Zealanders can not own a gun for self defence.
The USA, well not only can you get a gun to shoot people, you are encouraged to do so with laws like "Stand your ground". 

This brings the cultural difference where in NZ, killing another human being is still repugnant, in the USA, its perfectly acceptable.

Then we come to law enforcement, in NZ police have a lot of hoops to jump through to be armed and to use those arms. In the USA, well they are practically poorly trained paramilitary with access to armoured cars etc etc etc, and it seems little over sight.


Being able to own a gun is NOT a sign of freedom, if you need a gun to feel safe in your own home, neighbourhood, town/city.... well you are NOT free.


Generalise much? Spent any time in the US? 

It is not to "most" people in the USA, "perfectly acceptable" to kill someone. I deal with Americans every single day, and whilst like in every culture you will find people who have more extreme views, the US is no exception, but I deal with people every day who think that gun laws are too lax or that killing someone would be completely repugnant.




Yep, been there multiple times and have a number of friends who live there.

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  Reply # 1119873 1-Sep-2014 19:25
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jeffnz:
DravidDavid: 

I don't see any reason why someone shouldn't be able to legally carry a concealed firearm.  This kind of situation could have been diffused before any shots by the criminal were fired.


What a stupid statement to make how would you even know that carrying firearms would have stopped this happening, who knows what would have happened, anyway its totally irrelevant.



The key word was "could".  I don't know if it would have stopped bullets flying.  Magical finger pointing certainly isn't going to do anything though.





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  Reply # 1119910 1-Sep-2014 20:04
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Geez i bet this is a volatile thread.

Ok
Here is the answer cause well I know pretty much everything...

Ban all automatic weapons from new zealand Only the Police and the army are allowed to use them.

Only Farmers who can justify the use of a rifle are allowed to own one the license is $10,0000 a year. A medical competency certificate required every 6 months.

Ban all handguns from private use even clubs.

Any person caught with an illegal weapon gets life without parole

Easy problem solved




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  Reply # 1119916 1-Sep-2014 20:07
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mattwnz: With what has happened today http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10446709/Live-Police-hunt-gunman-in-Ashburton  and all the similar tragedies in recent past , I am in the belief that NZ gun laws could do with a lot of updating. I am kind of sick about hearing these sorts of stories and how they keep happening.  I believe NZ has one of the biggest gun ownership rates in the world, but it is relatively easy for people to get a license. I believe laser ownership is now even more restricted than gun ownership.  What are other peoples thoughts?


In what way did gun law affect the outcome of these events?

I presume that the man did not have a licence, since he was homeless, so I presume he stole the gun or otherwise acquired it illegally.

Since that is already illegal, I cannot see how a law change would have altered that outcome.





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  Reply # 1119918 1-Sep-2014 20:12
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sir1963:
mattwnz: With what has happened today http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10446709/Live-Police-hunt-gunman-in-Ashburton  and all the similar tragedies in recent past , I am in the belief that NZ gun laws could do with a lot of updating. I am kind of sick about hearing these sorts of stories and how they keep happening.  I believe NZ has one of the biggest gun ownership rates in the world, but it is relatively easy for people to get a license. I believe laser ownership is now even more restricted than gun ownership.  What are other peoples thoughts?


Well the BIG difference between the USA and NZ is attitude.

New Zealanders can not own a gun for self defence.
The USA, well not only can you get a gun to shoot people, you are encouraged to do so with laws like "Stand your ground". 

This brings the cultural difference where in NZ, killing another human being is still repugnant, in the USA, its perfectly acceptable.

Then we come to law enforcement, in NZ police have a lot of hoops to jump through to be armed and to use those arms. In the USA, well they are practically poorly trained paramilitary with access to armoured cars etc etc etc, and it seems little over sight.


Being able to own a gun is NOT a sign of freedom, if you need a gun to feel safe in your own home, neighbourhood, town/city.... well you are NOT free.


In that case, I can think of many places I have seen in NZ where I would not be 'free' because I certainly would not want to rely on state contractors in the form of the Blue Gang for my own safety.

If I rang them right now and told them a man with a weapon was attempting to break into my home, they wouldn't be here for at least 30 minutes...! What should I do - ask the lunatic if he would like tea whilst we wait?!





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  Reply # 1119921 1-Sep-2014 20:16
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Glassboy:
Inphinity: We should just give out rocket launchers to everybody, so we can just make sure there's always a Goodie around to blow up the Baddie at the right time. Because yes, logics!


I've checked the list, you're not allowed a rocket launcher.  Seems you have an unpaid parking ticket.


Actually, with a C endorsement on your licence (Collector) you probably CAN have a rocket launcher!

Certainly you can have a bone fide machine gun - that works - as long as you don't actually fire it....





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  Reply # 1119923 1-Sep-2014 20:21
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At the very least, it seems to me that the carrying of non-lethal options for personal and home defence should be licensed and permitted.

By these I mean items such as pepper spray, Mace etc etc





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  Reply # 1119929 1-Sep-2014 20:28
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KiwiNZ:
DravidDavid:
mattwnz: But someone in an urban environment shouldn't really need a gun nor store it within an urban environment. For sporting use, they could be stored at the sporting facility. The problem is that there is 1 gun for every 4 people in NZ so there would probably be some pretty heavy lobbying against any changes.


An urban environment is exactly where I'd want one.

Let's say an attacker ambushed your home and held your family at gunpoint.  Who would you rather had the firearm in this instance.

How about the petrol station?  Casually looking for cheese crackers after filling up and an armed trio walk right on in brandishing a sawn off shotgun.  One of them hits the cashier in the foot and looks as if he is going to take a pot shot at you across the room...If you had the choice, would you rather have a Glock 17 in your belt or a Snickers?

It's common sense, and it's stupid we arn't allowed to legally, even if we fly the straight and narrow and WORK HARD for the option.


That is just plain ludicrous thinking.


absolutely, carrying is complete nuts.  I'm sorry but we are not America

A shooting - luckily this is a rare event here. How many people in NZ have gun licenses? then how many of those are licensed for pistols?  Very few.

I don't want to live in a country where people are carrying around concealed pistols.  This thing about ex-police, ex-military regularly conceal carrying - I don't buy it.

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  Reply # 1119930 1-Sep-2014 20:30
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DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ:
DravidDavid:
mattwnz: But someone in an urban environment shouldn't really need a gun nor store it within an urban environment. For sporting use, they could be stored at the sporting facility. The problem is that there is 1 gun for every 4 people in NZ so there would probably be some pretty heavy lobbying against any changes.


An urban environment is exactly where I'd want one.

Let's say an attacker ambushed your home and held your family at gunpoint.  Who would you rather had the firearm in this instance.

How about the petrol station?  Casually looking for cheese crackers after filling up and an armed trio walk right on in brandishing a sawn off shotgun.  One of them hits the cashier in the foot and looks as if he is going to take a pot shot at you across the room...If you had the choice, would you rather have a Glock 17 in your belt or a Snickers?

It's common sense, and it's stupid we arn't allowed to legally, even if we fly the straight and narrow and WORK HARD for the option.


That is just plain ludicrous thinking.

Try telling that to anyone who has ever needed a firearm in any dangerous situation such as the one in the Work and Income office.  Also, I didn't see you proposing any alternative to the situation...So I'm guessing you choose robbery and/or death in the above situation?

...Because the Police are 20 minutes too late, if you can dial them in the first place!


because one of those WINZ staffers will be a licensed pistol holder and choose to conceal carry their pistol to work, just in case?

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  Reply # 1119931 1-Sep-2014 20:30
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nathan:
KiwiNZ:
DravidDavid:
mattwnz: But someone in an urban environment shouldn't really need a gun nor store it within an urban environment. For sporting use, they could be stored at the sporting facility. The problem is that there is 1 gun for every 4 people in NZ so there would probably be some pretty heavy lobbying against any changes.


An urban environment is exactly where I'd want one.

Let's say an attacker ambushed your home and held your family at gunpoint.  Who would you rather had the firearm in this instance.

How about the petrol station?  Casually looking for cheese crackers after filling up and an armed trio walk right on in brandishing a sawn off shotgun.  One of them hits the cashier in the foot and looks as if he is going to take a pot shot at you across the room...If you had the choice, would you rather have a Glock 17 in your belt or a Snickers?

It's common sense, and it's stupid we arn't allowed to legally, even if we fly the straight and narrow and WORK HARD for the option.


That is just plain ludicrous thinking.


absolutely, carrying is complete nuts.  I'm sorry but we are not America

A shooting - luckily this is a rare event here. How many people in NZ have gun licenses? then how many of those are licensed for pistols?  Very few.

I don't want to live in a country where people are carrying around concealed pistols.  This thing about ex-police, ex-military regularly conceal carrying - I don't buy it.


I'd support carrying concealed if there was a proper training requirement for people wanting to do so.

At the end of the day the main issue in the US is that people can do it as of right just about with no need to get any training.

If you make people here pass the same course the Police do, then fair enough I say.





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  Reply # 1119943 1-Sep-2014 20:42
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this is NZ, not the wild west.  I would like to think the police have better training and mental tests than the public, and Police only have access to firearms while they are at work

How many of the licensed pistol holders in NZ are for pistol clubs?  Most I would imagine.  Your typical holder is into pistol target shooting, not a Glock for taking someone out.

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  Reply # 1119957 1-Sep-2014 21:00
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A pistol is more or less useless contrary to what Hollywood would have one believe.




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  Reply # 1119959 1-Sep-2014 21:02
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Personally I believe the most well Armed in NZ should be the Military then law enforcement. IF you have a gun it should be in an approved locker, you should need to have it professionally cleaned 6 monthly. You should need to complete at least 6 hours every 6 months of supervised target practice. Inspections of your Gun Locker should be random and failure should result in a 5 year ban. People with Mental Health issues and Criminal Records, should not be allowed guns, and guns should not be allowed in households where those people reside.

Same as what I believe it should be in the US.

Also no non standard ammo, nothing over 9mm, nothing automatic, no non standard accessories.


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  Reply # 1119976 1-Sep-2014 21:18
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Awfully sad catalyst to this conversation, but many good points, well made, from many perspectives.

As a person who owns a lot of guns I am glad that I have to lock them up in all sorts of very inconvenient ways and that it is illegal to use a firearm in self defense.
  1. This makes it harder for folks without firearms licences and premeditated ill intent to get hold of a complete unit.
  2. This also makes it harder for folks with firearms licences and firearms to commit crimes of passion. By the time you have unlocked the firearm, collected the bolt/mag/ammo, you more than likely have cooled down enough not to do your self or others lethal damage.

I have many good ol' fashioned friends from the US of A and I have to respectfully say that I think they have the gun control thing completely backwards. In my opinion the easier the access is to lethal force the worse the outcomes in moments of rage/terror. I also think an arms race with "the bad guys" is always going to be won by the most motivated professionals (criminals).

So on firearms I think NZ does a good job, try traveling overseas with one!
On a how to prevent this sort of thing from happening... A more caring attitude to our most, uneducated, un-parented, abused, addicted citizens would be a kind start. I would also happily pay more taxes if we let the Police do their job rather than having to prop up their budget by give us speeding tickets for 104 and get the education system in te poorest areas the resources needed to give a few more angry, disaffected folk a fighting chance in today's world.

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