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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1119979 1-Sep-2014 21:21
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- deleted -

Yep, what Flow said. Especially the final paragraph. 

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  Reply # 1120044 1-Sep-2014 22:14
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networkn: Personally I believe the most well Armed in NZ should be the Military then law enforcement. IF you have a gun it should be in an approved locker, you should need to have it professionally cleaned 6 monthly. You should need to complete at least 6 hours every 6 months of supervised target practice. Inspections of your Gun Locker should be random and failure should result in a 5 year ban. People with Mental Health issues and Criminal Records, should not be allowed guns, and guns should not be allowed in households where those people reside.

Same as what I believe it should be in the US.

Also no non standard ammo, nothing over 9mm, nothing automatic, no non standard accessories.



That seems a bit excessive. I agree with having to store a gun in an approved locker, but I thought (I don't actually have a gun) that you already had to have your home inspected for an approved gun safe as part of being licensed? I don't however agree with the rest.

Given that we have 1.1 millions guns and, presumably hundreds of thousands of gun owners, I think it's pretty obvious from our very low gun homicide rate we have a very low prevalence of irresponsible legal gun owners.

What would be the point of expensively and annoyingly requiring hours every six months of supervised target practice? And why mandatory cleaning every six months - do we have a serous death problem due to dirty guns?

Especially when you consider that much gun related crime is likely carried out by unlicensed people who have illegally obtained a gun, and won't be impacted one bit by much tougher licensing. The ones who will be hugely inconvenienced are the licensed owner who comply with the law and have a gun for perfectly legitimate reasons (farmer, duck hunter, small-bore shooting enthusiast, possum control...). But these people don't, by and large, appear to be the problem.

Honestly, horrible though shootings are, if they want to best reduce fatalities and injuries the Government would have a vastly better impact putting more resources into catching people driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs than making law-abiding gun owners jump through more hoops.

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  Reply # 1120097 1-Sep-2014 22:47
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This thread has started off on the basic assumption that
a. the offender had a firearms licence and
b. the offender obtained his firearm/s legally.

A good amount of gun crime in this country is committed by people without licences and who have obtained their weapons unlawfully. Jan Molenaar is a prime example. He outgunned police, who only have semi-automatics for the benefit of some, with his [impressive] arsenal up until STG turned up. He also also had enough ammunition scattered throughout the house to keep a small army going and booby traps in the gardens, on the fences and throughout the house.

I'm not certain, but I don't think a change to gun laws would make any difference to the likes of him.



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  Reply # 1120106 1-Sep-2014 22:57
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nathan: this is NZ, not the wild west.  I would like to think the police have better training and mental tests than the public, and Police only have access to firearms while they are at work

How many of the licensed pistol holders in NZ are for pistol clubs?  Most I would imagine.  Your typical holder is into pistol target shooting, not a Glock for taking someone out.


The Police ARE the general public who have joined the police. There are many members of the general public who could pass the mental tests and training for being a police firearms user - they just happen to prefer being accountants or whatever.

Pistol clubs run many things but plain target shooting is probably the least common thing. Mine does Three Gun and Cowboy Action mostly.





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  Reply # 1120107 1-Sep-2014 22:58
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Dratsab: This thread has started off on the basic assumption that
a. the offender had a firearms licence and
b. the offender obtained his firearm/s legally.

A good amount of gun crime in this country is committed by people without licences and who have obtained their weapons unlawfully. Jan Molenaar is a prime example. He outgunned police, who only have semi-automatics for the benefit of some, with his [impressive] arsenal up until STG turned up. He also also had enough ammunition scattered throughout the house to keep a small army going and booby traps in the gardens, on the fences and throughout the house.

I'm not certain, but I don't think a change to gun laws would make any difference to the likes of him.




Precisely so.





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  Reply # 1120109 1-Sep-2014 23:06
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nathan:
KiwiNZ:
DravidDavid:
mattwnz: But someone in an urban environment shouldn't really need a gun nor store it within an urban environment. For sporting use, they could be stored at the sporting facility. The problem is that there is 1 gun for every 4 people in NZ so there would probably be some pretty heavy lobbying against any changes.


An urban environment is exactly where I'd want one.

Let's say an attacker ambushed your home and held your family at gunpoint.  Who would you rather had the firearm in this instance.

How about the petrol station?  Casually looking for cheese crackers after filling up and an armed trio walk right on in brandishing a sawn off shotgun.  One of them hits the cashier in the foot and looks as if he is going to take a pot shot at you across the room...If you had the choice, would you rather have a Glock 17 in your belt or a Snickers?

It's common sense, and it's stupid we arn't allowed to legally, even if we fly the straight and narrow and WORK HARD for the option.


That is just plain ludicrous thinking.


absolutely, carrying is complete nuts.  I'm sorry but we are not America

A shooting - luckily this is a rare event here. How many people in NZ have gun licenses? then how many of those are licensed for pistols?  Very few.

I don't want to live in a country where people are carrying around concealed pistols.  This thing about ex-police, ex-military regularly conceal carrying - I don't buy it.


There are approx 230,000 licence holders owning 1.1 million firearms. I do not know how many have B endorsements for pistols - perhaps 10%-20%.





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  Reply # 1120110 1-Sep-2014 23:09
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JimmyH:
networkn: Personally I believe the most well Armed in NZ should be the Military then law enforcement. IF you have a gun it should be in an approved locker, you should need to have it professionally cleaned 6 monthly. You should need to complete at least 6 hours every 6 months of supervised target practice. Inspections of your Gun Locker should be random and failure should result in a 5 year ban. People with Mental Health issues and Criminal Records, should not be allowed guns, and guns should not be allowed in households where those people reside.

Same as what I believe it should be in the US.

Also no non standard ammo, nothing over 9mm, nothing automatic, no non standard accessories.



That seems a bit excessive. I agree with having to store a gun in an approved locker, but I thought (I don't actually have a gun) that you already had to have your home inspected for an approved gun safe as part of being licensed? I don't however agree with the rest.

Given that we have 1.1 millions guns and, presumably hundreds of thousands of gun owners, I think it's pretty obvious from our very low gun homicide rate we have a very low prevalence of irresponsible legal gun owners.

What would be the point of expensively and annoyingly requiring hours every six months of supervised target practice? And why mandatory cleaning every six months - do we have a serous death problem due to dirty guns?

Especially when you consider that much gun related crime is likely carried out by unlicensed people who have illegally obtained a gun, and won't be impacted one bit by much tougher licensing. The ones who will be hugely inconvenienced are the licensed owner who comply with the law and have a gun for perfectly legitimate reasons (farmer, duck hunter, small-bore shooting enthusiast, possum control...). But these people don't, by and large, appear to be the problem.

Honestly, horrible though shootings are, if they want to best reduce fatalities and injuries the Government would have a vastly better impact putting more resources into catching people driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs than making law-abiding gun owners jump through more hoops.


You'd save more firearm deaths by banning alcohol when duckshooting than you would changing the law.





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  Reply # 1120123 1-Sep-2014 23:36
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I really do not think we need to change gun laws in NZ

We are never going to have a perfect society.
Some of the restrictions mentioned here will just hurt the massive majority of legitimate owners and criminals would still be able to get there hands on them. Drugs are a good example of this no matter how much crack down there is on meth its still fairly easy to come by, not saying we should change our drug laws but if there is a demand there will be supply.  



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  Reply # 1120125 1-Sep-2014 23:54
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nigelj:
mattwnz:
scuwp: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.


Except when the gun accidentally goes off and kills someone. The same could be said for lasers, the lasers are perfectly safe if used right, except for the small percentage of fools who shine them up at planes. I mean in today's environment why do people need a gun, unless you live in a rural environment and need to kill pests or livestock, or for sport. But someone in an urban environment shouldn't really need a gun nor store it within an urban environment. For sporting use, they could be stored at the sporting facility. The problem is that there is 1 gun for every 4 people in NZ so there would probably be some pretty heavy lobbying against any changes.


The lasers are a bit of a different story, if I recall the high powered ones - the ones that cause the most damage - are only illegal to import/own unless you have a license (and demonstrate the need).  It was far too easy/legal for someone to import a laser that was say 5x more powerful that anyone could ever need for 'just fun/playing around' (or even as a laser pointer).


And yet everyone on this forum own at least one high powered laser. I currently have 4 'active' ones, and several stored away in a cupboard. There are numerous helpful 'instructions and video's' on the net that show me how to easily turn them into portable handheld lasers capable of seriously injuring people.  Got a DVD reader/writer in your computer(s)?



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  Reply # 1120135 2-Sep-2014 00:48
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Dratsab: This thread has started off on the basic assumption that
a. the offender had a firearms licence and
b. the offender obtained his firearm/s legally.

A good amount of gun crime in this country is committed by people without licences and who have obtained their weapons unlawfully. Jan Molenaar is a prime example. He outgunned police, who only have semi-automatics for the benefit of some, with his [impressive] arsenal up until STG turned up. He also also had enough ammunition scattered throughout the house to keep a small army going and booby traps in the gardens, on the fences and throughout the house.

I'm not certain, but I don't think a change to gun laws would make any difference to the likes of him.




I am not assuming anything. The fact is the the gunman got his hands on a gun, either legally, borrowed, or stolen. It is possibily more of a concern though if he got it off someone else. I mean are all guns in NZ recorded next to the owners name, and all uniquely coded in some form of central register? So if one gets stolen for instance, that these thefts are reported, and the gun is recorded as being stolen.
Yes there maybe a lot of gun users around NZ, but do people really 'need' them, or at the least need to keep them at home. There are also a lot of people who used higher powered lasers for recreation purposes and fun, but they were banned, and lasers can't kill you. They may damage your eyes, but so can most chemicals if they are sprayed in your eyes.
 

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  Reply # 1120136 2-Sep-2014 00:49
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KiwiNZ: A pistol is more or less useless contrary to what Hollywood would have one believe.

Let's open carry AR-15 assault rifles instead then.  Hollywood was never a benchmark for anything.  Pistols are very effective close to mid range.  It's not like I'm going to be sniping offenders from the top of radio towers, either.

--

Nobody suggested a wild west strategy either.  The ability to conceal carry does not mean we can compare ourselves to the USA or the "Wild West" in terms of craziness.  Proper training, regulation, endorsements and licensing should mitigate any concerns the general public have with their safety. 

Those who wish to legally arm themselves to defend their person and the general public should be allowed to in the event an unlicensed crazy person decides to go on a shoot-out.

Many already carry knives on them for self defense (and other illegal items) which as pointed out in this thread, can be just as deadly.





Sometimes what you don't get is a blessing in disguise!



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  Reply # 1120138 2-Sep-2014 00:56
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DravidDavid: 

Many already carry knives on them for self defense (and other illegal items) which as pointed out in this thread, can be just as deadly.


Comparing knives to guns is rather fruitless, because people with a knife can either be outrun on overpowered, and won't normally cause mass carnage. Whereas someone with a gun can cause carnage with many people over a wide area.

I remember when I was at school quite a few kids (16) had got their license, and some of these people were a bit nutty. Certainly it wasn't an IQ based test, because these kids were bottom of the class, and were outdoor types into their hunting.
You also don't need any firearms license if you have a high powered air rifle, which have the power to kill.



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  Reply # 1120139 2-Sep-2014 00:59
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Geektastic:
You'd save more firearm deaths by banning alcohol when duckshooting than you would changing the law.

 But isn't it illegal to shoot while under the influence? So maybe better policing is needed, although our police are already understaffed. Maybe they could move to a similar system like they did with driver licensing. It used to be run by the police, and was cheap to get one and most people passed their license easily. These days it is expensive to get a drivers license, and the testing is very difficult, where many people are now spending thousands to resit tests. I paid a total of about $200 for mine in the early 2000's, and it was even cheaper in the 90's. I noticed that is is very cheap to get a firearms license, compared to getting a car license, so maybe they need to increase this, along with more regular tests.

If you read the questions they ask on this page when renewing a license, I think anyone here could answer them, as they are just common sense. http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/publications/firearms-application-form.pdf 

Although many think that our current laws are adequate enough, the problem seems to be others getting hold of the rifles. So what can be done to stop that. Perhaps put more of the responsibility on the gun owner so they also get in trouble if their firearm they have lent or not secured properly, or stolen and not reported stolen?



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  Reply # 1120157 2-Sep-2014 01:07
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Stan: I really do not think we need to change gun laws in NZ

We are never going to have a perfect society.
Some of the restrictions mentioned here will just hurt the massive majority of legitimate owners and criminals would still be able to get there hands on them. Drugs are a good example of this no matter how much crack down there is on meth its still fairly easy to come by, not saying we should change our drug laws but if there is a demand there will be supply.  




Drugs though can be created/grown and are small enough to be concealed and moved easily. Rifles are imported from overseas and purchased, so there are a finite number of them, and all details of their owner should be centrally stored (not sure if this is done though in NZ).

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1120183 2-Sep-2014 06:12
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29008671 this guy managed to kill 3 and stab another 3 before he killed himself, how many more could he have got if he didnt kill himself?

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