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MikeB4
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  #1120188 2-Sep-2014 06:46
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DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: A pistol is more or less useless contrary to what Hollywood would have one believe.

Let's open carry AR-15 assault rifles instead then.  Hollywood was never a benchmark for anything.  Pistols are very effective close to mid range.  It's not like I'm going to be sniping offenders from the top of radio towers, either.

--

Nobody suggested a wild west strategy either.  The ability to conceal carry does not mean we can compare ourselves to the USA or the "Wild West" in terms of craziness.  Proper training, regulation, endorsements and licensing should mitigate any concerns the general public have with their safety. 

Those who wish to legally arm themselves to defend their person and the general public should be allowed to in the event an unlicensed crazy person decides to go on a shoot-out.

Many already carry knives on them for self defense (and other illegal items) which as pointed out in this thread, can be just as deadly.


With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

As for carrying concealed weapons at least the law makers here show more sense.

Geektastic
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  #1120202 2-Sep-2014 07:52
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KiwiNZ:
DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: A pistol is more or less useless contrary to what Hollywood would have one believe.

Let's open carry AR-15 assault rifles instead then.  Hollywood was never a benchmark for anything.  Pistols are very effective close to mid range.  It's not like I'm going to be sniping offenders from the top of radio towers, either.

--

Nobody suggested a wild west strategy either.  The ability to conceal carry does not mean we can compare ourselves to the USA or the "Wild West" in terms of craziness.  Proper training, regulation, endorsements and licensing should mitigate any concerns the general public have with their safety. 

Those who wish to legally arm themselves to defend their person and the general public should be allowed to in the event an unlicensed crazy person decides to go on a shoot-out.

Many already carry knives on them for self defense (and other illegal items) which as pointed out in this thread, can be just as deadly.


With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

As for carrying concealed weapons at least the law makers here show more sense.


There are plenty at my club who can get 6 rounds in 6" groups in 10 seconds at 25 yards! Some of the Cowboy Action guys shoot Gunfighter matches with a revolver in each hand and do that twice!





 
 
 
 


MikeB4
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  #1120207 2-Sep-2014 08:03
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I agree in the safe environment of a range it is relatively easy, take it to a life threatening situation, add in adrenaline, fear etc and most will empty their clip and hit nothing.

jonathan18
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  #1120216 2-Sep-2014 08:31
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Geektastic:
nathan: this is NZ, not the wild west.  I would like to think the police have better training and mental tests than the public, and Police only have access to firearms while they are at work

How many of the licensed pistol holders in NZ are for pistol clubs?  Most I would imagine.  Your typical holder is into pistol target shooting, not a Glock for taking someone out.


The Police ARE the general public who have joined the police. There are many members of the general public who could pass the mental tests and training for being a police firearms user - they just happen to prefer being accountants or whatever.


Your logic of "police carry guns; police must get training to carry guns; therefore Joe and Josephine Blogs can carry/conceal guns if they get the same training" is plain bizzare to me.

Police officers are given access to guns as a tool to assist them execute their roles as the enforcement arm of the state and to protect its citizens etc. Whether even they now have too easy access to guns is a debatable point, but this reasoning for allowing members of the public to carry guns in public is quite scary.

Luckily I believe a majority of NZers will resist any attempt to take this country's gun laws down the US route - and I'd imagine many of these will be gun users such as flow, whose response here I found rational and nicely nuanced, providing a balance to some of the scary ideas espoused elsewhere in this thread.

DravidDavid
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  #1120256 2-Sep-2014 09:36
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KiwiNZ: With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

Speak for yourself.  It doesn't sound like you've ever fired a pistol before.

Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure.  Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first.  A firearm is always a last resort.

MikeB4
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  #1120264 2-Sep-2014 09:45
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DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

Speak for yourself.  It doesn't sound like you've ever fired a pistol before.

Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure.  Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first.  A firearm is always a last resort.


I have used many weapons including Handguns, Shotguns, Rifles , Automatics, Crossbows.  I showed your posts to two of my sons, both served 8 years in NZIR ( NZ Army) and did overseas service, when they stopped laughing they said you would probably "soil your pants (abridged) and miss every target. 

DravidDavid
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  #1120295 2-Sep-2014 10:11
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KiwiNZ:
DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

Speak for yourself.  It doesn't sound like you've ever fired a pistol before.

Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure.  Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first.  A firearm is always a last resort.


I have used many weapons including Handguns, Shotguns, Rifles , Automatics, Crossbows.  I showed your posts to two of my sons, both served 8 years in NZIR ( NZ Army) and did overseas service, when they stopped laughing they said you would probably "soil your pants (abridged) and miss every target. 


Cool.  Glad you got a laugh.  Can't say it's at my expense though...you know, since you don't know me and all.  Thank them for their service for me.

 
 
 
 


MikeB4
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  #1120300 2-Sep-2014 10:17
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DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ:
DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

Speak for yourself.  It doesn't sound like you've ever fired a pistol before.

Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure.  Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first.  A firearm is always a last resort.


I have used many weapons including Handguns, Shotguns, Rifles , Automatics, Crossbows.  I showed your posts to two of my sons, both served 8 years in NZIR ( NZ Army) and did overseas service, when they stopped laughing they said you would probably "soil your pants (abridged) and miss every target. 


Cool.  Glad you got a laugh.  Can't say it's at my expense though...you know, since you don't know me and all.  Thank them for their service for me.


I include myself in my description, I have used many weapons but in harms way and in some of the circumstances they were in I would be laying in the foetal position probably in a pile of my own excrement  and would miss the broadside of a garage at point blank range.

MaxLV
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  #1120305 2-Sep-2014 10:23
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DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

Speak for yourself.  It doesn't sound like you've ever fired a pistol before.

Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure.  Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first.  A firearm is always a last resort.


Slightly different? Competition shooting = static target static firing position.

Real life 'situation' fast moving target, and fast moving firing position and probably 'collateral' obstructions to avoid hitting.  Or does competition shooting now include moving targets and firing positions?

Geektastic
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  #1120323 2-Sep-2014 10:53
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KiwiNZ: I agree in the safe environment of a range it is relatively easy, take it to a life threatening situation, add in adrenaline, fear etc and most will empty their clip and hit nothing.


That is why you would need training before I would want to see concealed carry.

At the end of the day, how many 45ACP rounds do you need to land to bring down the bad guy? Just one. A reasonable shooter who does a proper training course (perhaps with an annual requal refresher) ought to land a single shot centre mass with as much likelihood as the police.





Geektastic
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  #1120326 2-Sep-2014 10:56
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MaxLV:
DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

Speak for yourself.  It doesn't sound like you've ever fired a pistol before.

Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure.  Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first.  A firearm is always a last resort.


Slightly different? Competition shooting = static target static firing position.

Real life 'situation' fast moving target, and fast moving firing position and probably 'collateral' obstructions to avoid hitting.  Or does competition shooting now include moving targets and firing positions?


Try Action Handgun or Speed Handgun -  or even Cowboy Action. No static firing positions there - especially so in Action, which is a course of fire not unlike you see in military training from which it is derived. Lots of running, diving, ducking, shooting from cover and so on.





Geektastic
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  #1120343 2-Sep-2014 10:59
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jonathan18:
Geektastic:
nathan: this is NZ, not the wild west.  I would like to think the police have better training and mental tests than the public, and Police only have access to firearms while they are at work

How many of the licensed pistol holders in NZ are for pistol clubs?  Most I would imagine.  Your typical holder is into pistol target shooting, not a Glock for taking someone out.


The Police ARE the general public who have joined the police. There are many members of the general public who could pass the mental tests and training for being a police firearms user - they just happen to prefer being accountants or whatever.


Your logic of "police carry guns; police must get training to carry guns; therefore Joe and Josephine Blogs can carry/conceal guns if they get the same training" is plain bizzare to me.

Police officers are given access to guns as a tool to assist them execute their roles as the enforcement arm of the state and to protect its citizens etc. Whether even they now have too easy access to guns is a debatable point, but this reasoning for allowing members of the public to carry guns in public is quite scary.

Luckily I believe a majority of NZers will resist any attempt to take this country's gun laws down the US route - and I'd imagine many of these will be gun users such as flow, whose response here I found rational and nicely nuanced, providing a balance to some of the scary ideas espoused elsewhere in this thread.


The logic is simple: police officers are the same as you and I. They are not a species distinct with bionic enhancements. If you can train a policeman to shoot and give them that responsibility, you can be trained to shoot and do the same (unless you have some sort of medical or psychological conditions that would get in the way).





MikeB4
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  #1120344 2-Sep-2014 11:00
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Geektastic:
MaxLV:
DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

Speak for yourself.  It doesn't sound like you've ever fired a pistol before.

Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure.  Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first.  A firearm is always a last resort.


Slightly different? Competition shooting = static target static firing position.

Real life 'situation' fast moving target, and fast moving firing position and probably 'collateral' obstructions to avoid hitting.  Or does competition shooting now include moving targets and firing positions?


Try Action Handgun or Speed Handgun -  or even Cowboy Action. No static firing positions there - especially so in Action, which is a course of fire not unlike you see in military training from which it is derived. Lots of running, diving, ducking, shooting from cover and so on.


Doing moving target and moving shooter practice does improve gun control, however these are still safe environments. Add in danger, fear, panic and it's a different story.

DravidDavid
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  #1120349 2-Sep-2014 11:04
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MaxLV:
DravidDavid: Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure.  Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first.  A firearm is always a last resort.


Slightly different? Competition shooting = static target static firing position.

Real life 'situation' fast moving target, and fast moving firing position and probably 'collateral' obstructions to avoid hitting.  Or does competition shooting now include moving targets and firing positions?


You're not always in a static firing position when competition shooting.  And if you are a hunter, your target isn't always stationary either, haha :)  I don't hunt, but moving around targets shooting at them as quick as possible gets the blood pumping and adrenalin runs high.  The rush might be different in a real life situation, but like I said...I'd like the last resort option if a problem eventuates.  Currently there is no law allowing law abiding citizens to carry...Which means thugs get a free pass, and it looks as if they are using it more and more these days.  Be it at a petrol station, a driveway in Massey, Auckland or the local dairy.

Times seem to be changing.  I'd hate it if our country ended up with everyone open carrying in the streets.  That's not what I'm suggesting.  But at the very least, say allowing people like Private Investigators who are in high risk situations to carry or something.

DravidDavid
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  #1120353 2-Sep-2014 11:07
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Geektastic:
Try Action Handgun or Speed Handgun -  or even Cowboy Action. No static firing positions there - especially so in Action, which is a course of fire not unlike you see in military training from which it is derived. Lots of running, diving, ducking, shooting from cover and so on.

Haha, I like action shooting, but I wouldn't dare try diving and rolling.  I'll admit, that's probably a situation where I'd end up shooting myself in the head!

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