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  Reply # 1128378 14-Sep-2014 16:06
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nunz:
Jase2985:
Rikkitic: I haven’t read all the comments but I did sample some. I don’t expect my 2 cents will change anything but here it is anyway: First, I don’t believe in left/right adversarial nonsense, just good ideas and bad ideas. Both sides have some of both. What always gets me about these types of discussions, though, is those who doggedly cling to their ideologies regardless of the consequences. In other words, the notion that children should be left to suffer because their parents are stupid or selfish or immoral or otherwise not of an acceptable standard. Enlightened self-interest says that society has to step in for its own protection regardless of whose fault it is. The alternative is to sit on your high horse claiming the moral high ground while the world crumbles around you as people raised without any values burgle your home, assault you on the street and do no productive work. I would far rather invest in turning these people around while they are still kids than building prisons for them all. And maybe the first generation freed from the hopelessness cycle might even choose to have fewer children. That seems to work elsewhere.


The kids shouldn't be made to suffer peroid, but the problem is throwing more money at the parents (because the government cant give the kids the money) doesn't necessarily help the children.

we need to help change the ideology to put the kids first in those at risk faimiles.

that to me is the biggest problem at the moment. the kids are not considered to be a priority


Provide school lunches for all children - works overseas, is cost effective, provides employment and ensure a healthy educated group of kids coming through. The cost savings on health and a few other areas as well as the increased employment, food sales etc all hlep offset the costs.



School lunches overseas are rubbish, sugar,fat,salt laden rubbish. They are NOT healthy options, they are "tendered out", given to the lowest bidder "To save tax dollars" and the quality is representative of that cost (as well as profit to the corporation supplying it).


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  Reply # 1128398 14-Sep-2014 16:48
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sir1963:
nunz:
Jase2985:
Rikkitic: I haven’t read all the comments but I did sample some. I don’t expect my 2 cents will change anything but here it is anyway: First, I don’t believe in left/right adversarial nonsense, just good ideas and bad ideas. Both sides have some of both. What always gets me about these types of discussions, though, is those who doggedly cling to their ideologies regardless of the consequences. In other words, the notion that children should be left to suffer because their parents are stupid or selfish or immoral or otherwise not of an acceptable standard. Enlightened self-interest says that society has to step in for its own protection regardless of whose fault it is. The alternative is to sit on your high horse claiming the moral high ground while the world crumbles around you as people raised without any values burgle your home, assault you on the street and do no productive work. I would far rather invest in turning these people around while they are still kids than building prisons for them all. And maybe the first generation freed from the hopelessness cycle might even choose to have fewer children. That seems to work elsewhere.


The kids shouldn't be made to suffer peroid, but the problem is throwing more money at the parents (because the government cant give the kids the money) doesn't necessarily help the children.

we need to help change the ideology to put the kids first in those at risk faimiles.

that to me is the biggest problem at the moment. the kids are not considered to be a priority


Provide school lunches for all children - works overseas, is cost effective, provides employment and ensure a healthy educated group of kids coming through. The cost savings on health and a few other areas as well as the increased employment, food sales etc all hlep offset the costs.



School lunches overseas are rubbish, sugar,fat,salt laden rubbish. They are NOT healthy options, they are "tendered out", given to the lowest bidder "To save tax dollars" and the quality is representative of that cost (as well as profit to the corporation supplying it).



So you are saying just because something fails overseas it shouldn't be tried here? There are ways of ensuring it would work - for instance get Jamie Oliver involved. :)

By the same logic we should chuck out democracy because it failed in the middle east, capitalism coz its failed in USA and elections as they failed in Africa? I'm not saying try something that's failed and hope, but do it right. Mealswere served in brittish schools for years brefore captialism stucks it nose in, some asian countries provide meals and it works. Take out the profit motive, set a decent budget nad keep your eye on what is importantant.







nunz

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  Reply # 1128417 14-Sep-2014 17:36
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sir1963:
Technofreak: sir1963
Where did it go wrong, thats easy.
When I was young my dad worked, my mom was home.
There was someone in my home who had the time to teach me how to cook, how to read, arts and crafts. We walked home, we walked with friends, we socialised. We holidayed together.

Now we have children who are becoming parents who never knew this, both of their parents were in work, they have had none of the parenting, home skills passed on to them. Worse parents are often working weekends now too. Their holidays are too often in different times of the year meaning the family never holidays together either.

So now people bitch about the "break down of family values" , how can you have them when the family is never together ?

Real wages in real terms have dropped meaning parent now have to work longer hours to earn the same income as their parents did. More and more people have multiple part time jobs, leaving them even less time with the family.


You make some good points.

However I don't think any drop in real wages is the total cause of the problem you describe where there is less family time and no one at home to teach life skills.

Today every family has to have two cars, the latest wide screen TV, boat etc.  

Like you my Mum was a home executive, there was only one income.  We didn't have the latest gadgets in fact the first TV we ever had came from the my Grandmothers house after she died, I was at high school at the time.

Yes we walked or road our bikes to school and a lot of places in between.  I was lucky I got given a brand new bike for my 11th or 12th birthday. My younger sisters has to do with refurbished second hand bikes.  My Dad used to often ride about 10 km to work so as Mum had the car for the day when she needed it.

We always lived in the same 3 bedroom house which my parents owned. Our parents made do with one income. Hire purchase was never used if went couldn't afford it we didn't have it. The family car which was bought new in 1961 was 20 years old when it was replaced. We didn't go on holiday every year, we didn't have a lot of the things that are taken for granted today, but we never felt we were disadvantaged.

If many families toned down their spending the problem you raised above could be solved.



I am presuming that "Family" means those earning over $100,000
But lets look at it. Both parents need to get to work, and 99.9% won't be working the same hours at the same place, especially those who hold down 2-3 part time jobs. So owning 2 sub $1000 cars is not unrealistic. None of them would own a boat.

In your "glory times" they probably got a state advances loan at 3% fixed, they got $7/week (when $7 was good money) for each child they had, milk and bread cost a lot less in real terms, so did housing , schooling, and power, people could afford to live on one wage and they were better off than families today, I know mine did and so were many families I know.

The "new car" lots of people are buying is 20 years old when they buy it.

And many have NEVER been on holiday with their kids, they can't afford it.

"Toned down their spending"..... ROTFLMAO, they don't go to the Doctor because they can not afford it, Dentist.... never been side they left school, School uniforms are 2nd hand, so are shoes, etc etc.




I have four kids we go on holiday twice per year. However our total income in the hand is less than $800 per week of which half goes in rent alone. Now I have to consider luxuries such as cafe coffee, bought lunches, movies etc but by thinking ahead we make it. If I was to go on the dole I would have more money than I do now.

We have two older cars, I need one for work and my wife needs the other for dropping off kids etc. Two of our children are considered disabled. We spend a lot of money on visiting specialists, taking them to lessons (such as speech, riding etc - not all subsidised) to help them maximise their potential.

How do we do it? simple, we make our own lunches with home baked bread (home made bread is less than $1 per loaf if baked in a bread maker, electrical costs included). We dont have a television but we do have a computer (cobbled together from parts for less than $250). we also have a new play station 2 - we got it for Christmas last year. It cost almost nothing. My kids enjoy playing dora the explorer, driving games etc, and we dont really miss the newest shoot em ups.

We make our food from scratch, buy veggies and fruit when they are cheap and freeze / preserve them. BTW our freezer and washing machine were both second hand, older but they do the job.  we grow veggies etc.

Instead of expensive entertainment we go walkng in the hills, down to the beach, to the local pool occasionally. Our holidays are camping holidays - okains bay, arthurs pass, coes ford etc.

All this talk about families in poverty disturbs me. Chch is expensive to live in. But because I dont drink (much), dont smoke, dont do drugs and choose to get cheap weekly videos instead of new releases, play board games and do crafts instead of buying a $120 new PS4 game we seem to get by. My kids are well fed, they have warm clothes and while they would love more lollies, a PS4 and their own motor bikes they aren't really lacking anything.

like someone above said, we got our first bikes, probably second hand, when we were 12 - not 5. TV and other gadgets were fairly rare. I got my first watch when I was 10, my first transistor radio when I was 11 and saved up and went raspberry picking to afford my first electronic game (sports tronic).

I look at a lot of kids. They often have mobile phones - and not the $25 ones which txt and phone quite well but the easily broken smart phones. If they need phones to stay safe give them a $20 phone with a $20 2 degrees sim and renew it once per year. Dont spend $300 plus on a smart phone and $30-60 plus per month on a smart data plan.

Its not the big purchases that keep a lot of people in poverty but the little ones. $20 here, $50 there. look at a lot of houses phone bills. Its well over the $100 mark with internet, sky, mobile phones etc. And thats just the cheap plans.
The blenders and mixers, the ipads and pods, the phones, scooters, car radios etc. all little things but they add up. If most poorer people got rid of the electronic crap they would be far better off. Add smoking and weekly / daily  beer to the list, soft drinks, mac donalds and the other stuff that robs them poor a couple of dollars at a time.

Our food bill is around $150 per week - including pull ups. That feeds six well.

Two coffees a week (2 x $5) would remove $500 per year from our budget (1.25%)
Maccas once per fortnight ( 6 * $5-$7) would add $1000 per year (and we would still be hungry) (2.5%) of budget
One new release movie per week ($8.00) would cost $400 per year - 1% of our budget.
One beer per week would cost $5 per week or $250 per year - almost another 1%

The above list isn't extravagant for two adults and four kids. but it is over 5% of our budget per year gone - on little things.

Poverty starts with lack of education and continues through lack of self control. If we take the basic necessities of life for our family then we are looking at food, clothing, warmth and shelter
$400 per week rent
$60 per week clothes and shoes ( $500 per year per person)
$150 per week for food
$65 per week for electricity.
$20 per week for medical
TOTAL $695

Everything after that is a luxury. There is not a family in NZ, with three kids who is not eligable for at least the amount shown in tax credits etc. At a minimum wage of $13 per hour a forty hour week returns $520. of which
424.71 is gotten in the hand after kiwi saver etc. Add $281 per week from family tax credits for a total of  705.71  Above list covered.

Now is that barely scraping by - yup. but it is not poverty. It includes expensive rent, health, clothing and the basics of warmth, shelter, food and clothing. The above calculations dont take into account things such as accomodation suppliment of over $30 per week, the fact that only one parent working on minimum wage is unlikely and over time etc.

What it does show is that the minimum wage for an unskilled person is too low and that our wage / costs ratio are all wrong - but poverty in NZ? not when you break it down to the bare essentials that the WHO defines as poverty. Show me one person in NZ who claims poverty that doesn't have a bunch of electronic crap, a car, tv, dvd, microwave, phone, mobile phone etc. Child poverry - yes - but normally because the parents are in poverty through bad choices and/or education - not because of lack of opportunity or money.
















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  Reply # 1128438 14-Sep-2014 18:01
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Spot on.

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  Reply # 1128501 14-Sep-2014 19:19
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nunz:
sir1963:
Technofreak: sir1963
Where did it go wrong, thats easy.
When I was young my dad worked, my mom was home.
There was someone in my home who had the time to teach me how to cook, how to read, arts and crafts. We walked home, we walked with friends, we socialised. We holidayed together.

Now we have children who are becoming parents who never knew this, both of their parents were in work, they have had none of the parenting, home skills passed on to them. Worse parents are often working weekends now too. Their holidays are too often in different times of the year meaning the family never holidays together either.

So now people bitch about the "break down of family values" , how can you have them when the family is never together ?

Real wages in real terms have dropped meaning parent now have to work longer hours to earn the same income as their parents did. More and more people have multiple part time jobs, leaving them even less time with the family.


You make some good points.

However I don't think any drop in real wages is the total cause of the problem you describe where there is less family time and no one at home to teach life skills.

Today every family has to have two cars, the latest wide screen TV, boat etc.  

Like you my Mum was a home executive, there was only one income.  We didn't have the latest gadgets in fact the first TV we ever had came from the my Grandmothers house after she died, I was at high school at the time.

Yes we walked or road our bikes to school and a lot of places in between.  I was lucky I got given a brand new bike for my 11th or 12th birthday. My younger sisters has to do with refurbished second hand bikes.  My Dad used to often ride about 10 km to work so as Mum had the car for the day when she needed it.

We always lived in the same 3 bedroom house which my parents owned. Our parents made do with one income. Hire purchase was never used if went couldn't afford it we didn't have it. The family car which was bought new in 1961 was 20 years old when it was replaced. We didn't go on holiday every year, we didn't have a lot of the things that are taken for granted today, but we never felt we were disadvantaged.

If many families toned down their spending the problem you raised above could be solved.



I am presuming that "Family" means those earning over $100,000
But lets look at it. Both parents need to get to work, and 99.9% won't be working the same hours at the same place, especially those who hold down 2-3 part time jobs. So owning 2 sub $1000 cars is not unrealistic. None of them would own a boat.

In your "glory times" they probably got a state advances loan at 3% fixed, they got $7/week (when $7 was good money) for each child they had, milk and bread cost a lot less in real terms, so did housing , schooling, and power, people could afford to live on one wage and they were better off than families today, I know mine did and so were many families I know.

The "new car" lots of people are buying is 20 years old when they buy it.

And many have NEVER been on holiday with their kids, they can't afford it.

"Toned down their spending"..... ROTFLMAO, they don't go to the Doctor because they can not afford it, Dentist.... never been side they left school, School uniforms are 2nd hand, so are shoes, etc etc.




I have four kids we go on holiday twice per year. However our total income in the hand is less than $800 per week of which half goes in rent alone. Now I have to consider luxuries such as cafe coffee, bought lunches, movies etc but by thinking ahead we make it. If I was to go on the dole I would have more money than I do now.

We have two older cars, I need one for work and my wife needs the other for dropping off kids etc. Two of our children are considered disabled. We spend a lot of money on visiting specialists, taking them to lessons (such as speech, riding etc - not all subsidised) to help them maximise their potential.

How do we do it? simple, we make our own lunches with home baked bread (home made bread is less than $1 per loaf if baked in a bread maker, electrical costs included). We dont have a television but we do have a computer (cobbled together from parts for less than $250). we also have a new play station 2 - we got it for Christmas last year. It cost almost nothing. My kids enjoy playing dora the explorer, driving games etc, and we dont really miss the newest shoot em ups.

We make our food from scratch, buy veggies and fruit when they are cheap and freeze / preserve them. BTW our freezer and washing machine were both second hand, older but they do the job.  we grow veggies etc.

Instead of expensive entertainment we go walkng in the hills, down to the beach, to the local pool occasionally. Our holidays are camping holidays - okains bay, arthurs pass, coes ford etc.

All this talk about families in poverty disturbs me. Chch is expensive to live in. But because I dont drink (much), dont smoke, dont do drugs and choose to get cheap weekly videos instead of new releases, play board games and do crafts instead of buying a $120 new PS4 game we seem to get by. My kids are well fed, they have warm clothes and while they would love more lollies, a PS4 and their own motor bikes they aren't really lacking anything.

like someone above said, we got our first bikes, probably second hand, when we were 12 - not 5. TV and other gadgets were fairly rare. I got my first watch when I was 10, my first transistor radio when I was 11 and saved up and went raspberry picking to afford my first electronic game (sports tronic).

I look at a lot of kids. They often have mobile phones - and not the $25 ones which txt and phone quite well but the easily broken smart phones. If they need phones to stay safe give them a $20 phone with a $20 2 degrees sim and renew it once per year. Dont spend $300 plus on a smart phone and $30-60 plus per month on a smart data plan.

Its not the big purchases that keep a lot of people in poverty but the little ones. $20 here, $50 there. look at a lot of houses phone bills. Its well over the $100 mark with internet, sky, mobile phones etc. And thats just the cheap plans.
The blenders and mixers, the ipads and pods, the phones, scooters, car radios etc. all little things but they add up. If most poorer people got rid of the electronic crap they would be far better off. Add smoking and weekly / daily  beer to the list, soft drinks, mac donalds and the other stuff that robs them poor a couple of dollars at a time.

Our food bill is around $150 per week - including pull ups. That feeds six well.

Two coffees a week (2 x $5) would remove $500 per year from our budget (1.25%)
Maccas once per fortnight ( 6 * $5-$7) would add $1000 per year (and we would still be hungry) (2.5%) of budget
One new release movie per week ($8.00) would cost $400 per year - 1% of our budget.
One beer per week would cost $5 per week or $250 per year - almost another 1%

The above list isn't extravagant for two adults and four kids. but it is over 5% of our budget per year gone - on little things.

Poverty starts with lack of education and continues through lack of self control. If we take the basic necessities of life for our family then we are looking at food, clothing, warmth and shelter
$400 per week rent
$60 per week clothes and shoes ( $500 per year per person)
$150 per week for food
$65 per week for electricity.
$20 per week for medical
TOTAL $695

Everything after that is a luxury. There is not a family in NZ, with three kids who is not eligable for at least the amount shown in tax credits etc. At a minimum wage of $13 per hour a forty hour week returns $520. of which
424.71 is gotten in the hand after kiwi saver etc. Add $281 per week from family tax credits for a total of  705.71  Above list covered.

Now is that barely scraping by - yup. but it is not poverty. It includes expensive rent, health, clothing and the basics of warmth, shelter, food and clothing. The above calculations dont take into account things such as accomodation suppliment of over $30 per week, the fact that only one parent working on minimum wage is unlikely and over time etc.

What it does show is that the minimum wage for an unskilled person is too low and that our wage / costs ratio are all wrong - but poverty in NZ? not when you break it down to the bare essentials that the WHO defines as poverty. Show me one person in NZ who claims poverty that doesn't have a bunch of electronic crap, a car, tv, dvd, microwave, phone, mobile phone etc. Child poverry - yes - but normally because the parents are in poverty through bad choices and/or education - not because of lack of opportunity or money.


So, $800  a week in the hand, that would place you pre tax in an "above average income" which is $844 pretax (= $43,888), median income for all people from all income sources is $575 a week.

Now when we take the tax of $43,888 (IRD calculator) = 6700.40 = 37,187.60 = $715.14

Now 50% of people earn LESS than this

So based on your figures they would have $20 a week for transport to and from school/work for the whole family, not possible in a city, and that is where most people in NZ are. If they all shifted to small towns then there would be the cry that they are deliberately going to where there are no jobs so they don't have to work.
I also don't see school fees for the kids, nor the expenses of any sports / school activities they may be involved in + school books etc that would cost more than $20 a week with 4 kids.
I don't see insurance (car or contents) , cost of looking after the property (mowing lawns etc), again more than $20 a week
Don't see Car registration or WOF, tyres, petrol etc about $10-20 a week per vehicle
Don't see your internet or phone, yet you must have that or you would not be on here about $15-20 a week minimum
What about HPs for the fridge/washing machine/ beds etc etc etc or is there money set aside for repairs/replacements for these too, say $10-20 a week
Nothing for birthdays or Xmas I see, say another $10 a week
Nothing for savings, what happens if you are ill, injured
How long could you survive if you go made redundant, the stand down period is 13 weeks, you would need $10,400 in savings to cover this
And of course the median rent for a 3Br house in Auckland is $550 a week http://www.interest.co.nz/property/58318/big-february-surge-median-weekly-rent-three-bedroom-auckland-houses-nz550

So, using online calculators, although the average rent in Auckland is $150 more than your "expensive rent" the accommodation supplement comes to $99, so that leave $50/week out of pocket , the equivalent of pay $450 a week rent.

So your budget is blown and thats on an above average income








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  Reply # 1128504 14-Sep-2014 19:25
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Whatever it is, giving out free money isn't solving anything. Educating the next generation probably achieves more. But the environment they grow up in has very very high impact on how they turn out. Other than communism in that community it is very difficult.

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  Reply # 1128530 14-Sep-2014 20:00
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sir1963:
nunz:
sir1963:
Technofreak: sir1963
Where did it go wrong, thats easy.
When I was young my dad worked, my mom was home.
There was someone in my home who had the time to teach me how to cook, how to read, arts and crafts. We walked home, we walked with friends, we socialised. We holidayed together.

Now we have children who are becoming parents who never knew this, both of their parents were in work, they have had none of the parenting, home skills passed on to them. Worse parents are often working weekends now too. Their holidays are too often in different times of the year meaning the family never holidays together either.

So now people bitch about the "break down of family values" , how can you have them when the family is never together ?

Real wages in real terms have dropped meaning parent now have to work longer hours to earn the same income as their parents did. More and more people have multiple part time jobs, leaving them even less time with the family.


You make some good points.

However I don't think any drop in real wages is the total cause of the problem you describe where there is less family time and no one at home to teach life skills.

Today every family has to have two cars, the latest wide screen TV, boat etc.  

Like you my Mum was a home executive, there was only one income.  We didn't have the latest gadgets in fact the first TV we ever had came from the my Grandmothers house after she died, I was at high school at the time.

Yes we walked or road our bikes to school and a lot of places in between.  I was lucky I got given a brand new bike for my 11th or 12th birthday. My younger sisters has to do with refurbished second hand bikes.  My Dad used to often ride about 10 km to work so as Mum had the car for the day when she needed it.

We always lived in the same 3 bedroom house which my parents owned. Our parents made do with one income. Hire purchase was never used if went couldn't afford it we didn't have it. The family car which was bought new in 1961 was 20 years old when it was replaced. We didn't go on holiday every year, we didn't have a lot of the things that are taken for granted today, but we never felt we were disadvantaged.

If many families toned down their spending the problem you raised above could be solved.



I am presuming that "Family" means those earning over $100,000
But lets look at it. Both parents need to get to work, and 99.9% won't be working the same hours at the same place, especially those who hold down 2-3 part time jobs. So owning 2 sub $1000 cars is not unrealistic. None of them would own a boat.

In your "glory times" they probably got a state advances loan at 3% fixed, they got $7/week (when $7 was good money) for each child they had, milk and bread cost a lot less in real terms, so did housing , schooling, and power, people could afford to live on one wage and they were better off than families today, I know mine did and so were many families I know.

The "new car" lots of people are buying is 20 years old when they buy it.

And many have NEVER been on holiday with their kids, they can't afford it.

"Toned down their spending"..... ROTFLMAO, they don't go to the Doctor because they can not afford it, Dentist.... never been side they left school, School uniforms are 2nd hand, so are shoes, etc etc.




I have four kids we go on holiday twice per year. However our total income in the hand is less than $800 per week of which half goes in rent alone. Now I have to consider luxuries such as cafe coffee, bought lunches, movies etc but by thinking ahead we make it. If I was to go on the dole I would have more money than I do now.

We have two older cars, I need one for work and my wife needs the other for dropping off kids etc. Two of our children are considered disabled. We spend a lot of money on visiting specialists, taking them to lessons (such as speech, riding etc - not all subsidised) to help them maximise their potential.

How do we do it? simple, we make our own lunches with home baked bread (home made bread is less than $1 per loaf if baked in a bread maker, electrical costs included). We dont have a television but we do have a computer (cobbled together from parts for less than $250). we also have a new play station 2 - we got it for Christmas last year. It cost almost nothing. My kids enjoy playing dora the explorer, driving games etc, and we dont really miss the newest shoot em ups.

We make our food from scratch, buy veggies and fruit when they are cheap and freeze / preserve them. BTW our freezer and washing machine were both second hand, older but they do the job.  we grow veggies etc.

Instead of expensive entertainment we go walkng in the hills, down to the beach, to the local pool occasionally. Our holidays are camping holidays - okains bay, arthurs pass, coes ford etc.

All this talk about families in poverty disturbs me. Chch is expensive to live in. But because I dont drink (much), dont smoke, dont do drugs and choose to get cheap weekly videos instead of new releases, play board games and do crafts instead of buying a $120 new PS4 game we seem to get by. My kids are well fed, they have warm clothes and while they would love more lollies, a PS4 and their own motor bikes they aren't really lacking anything.

like someone above said, we got our first bikes, probably second hand, when we were 12 - not 5. TV and other gadgets were fairly rare. I got my first watch when I was 10, my first transistor radio when I was 11 and saved up and went raspberry picking to afford my first electronic game (sports tronic).

I look at a lot of kids. They often have mobile phones - and not the $25 ones which txt and phone quite well but the easily broken smart phones. If they need phones to stay safe give them a $20 phone with a $20 2 degrees sim and renew it once per year. Dont spend $300 plus on a smart phone and $30-60 plus per month on a smart data plan.

Its not the big purchases that keep a lot of people in poverty but the little ones. $20 here, $50 there. look at a lot of houses phone bills. Its well over the $100 mark with internet, sky, mobile phones etc. And thats just the cheap plans.
The blenders and mixers, the ipads and pods, the phones, scooters, car radios etc. all little things but they add up. If most poorer people got rid of the electronic crap they would be far better off. Add smoking and weekly / daily  beer to the list, soft drinks, mac donalds and the other stuff that robs them poor a couple of dollars at a time.

Our food bill is around $150 per week - including pull ups. That feeds six well.

Two coffees a week (2 x $5) would remove $500 per year from our budget (1.25%)
Maccas once per fortnight ( 6 * $5-$7) would add $1000 per year (and we would still be hungry) (2.5%) of budget
One new release movie per week ($8.00) would cost $400 per year - 1% of our budget.
One beer per week would cost $5 per week or $250 per year - almost another 1%

The above list isn't extravagant for two adults and four kids. but it is over 5% of our budget per year gone - on little things.

Poverty starts with lack of education and continues through lack of self control. If we take the basic necessities of life for our family then we are looking at food, clothing, warmth and shelter
$400 per week rent
$60 per week clothes and shoes ( $500 per year per person)
$150 per week for food
$65 per week for electricity.
$20 per week for medical
TOTAL $695

Everything after that is a luxury. There is not a family in NZ, with three kids who is not eligable for at least the amount shown in tax credits etc. At a minimum wage of $13 per hour a forty hour week returns $520. of which
424.71 is gotten in the hand after kiwi saver etc. Add $281 per week from family tax credits for a total of  705.71  Above list covered.

Now is that barely scraping by - yup. but it is not poverty. It includes expensive rent, health, clothing and the basics of warmth, shelter, food and clothing. The above calculations dont take into account things such as accomodation suppliment of over $30 per week, the fact that only one parent working on minimum wage is unlikely and over time etc.

What it does show is that the minimum wage for an unskilled person is too low and that our wage / costs ratio are all wrong - but poverty in NZ? not when you break it down to the bare essentials that the WHO defines as poverty. Show me one person in NZ who claims poverty that doesn't have a bunch of electronic crap, a car, tv, dvd, microwave, phone, mobile phone etc. Child poverry - yes - but normally because the parents are in poverty through bad choices and/or education - not because of lack of opportunity or money.


So, $800  a week in the hand, that would place you pre tax in an "above average income" which is $844 pretax (= $43,888), median income for all people from all income sources is $575 a week.

Now when we take the tax of $43,888 (IRD calculator) = 6700.40 = 37,187.60 = $715.14

Now 50% of people earn LESS than this

So based on your figures they would have $20 a week for transport to and from school/work for the whole family, not possible in a city, and that is where most people in NZ are. If they all shifted to small towns then there would be the cry that they are deliberately going to where there are no jobs so they don't have to work.
I also don't see school fees for the kids, nor the expenses of any sports / school activities they may be involved in + school books etc that would cost more than $20 a week with 4 kids.
I don't see insurance (car or contents) , cost of looking after the property (mowing lawns etc), again more than $20 a week
Don't see Car registration or WOF, tyres, petrol etc about $10-20 a week per vehicle
Don't see your internet or phone, yet you must have that or you would not be on here about $15-20 a week minimum
What about HPs for the fridge/washing machine/ beds etc etc etc or is there money set aside for repairs/replacements for these too, say $10-20 a week
Nothing for birthdays or Xmas I see, say another $10 a week
Nothing for savings, what happens if you are ill, injured
How long could you survive if you go made redundant, the stand down period is 13 weeks, you would need $10,400 in savings to cover this
And of course the median rent for a 3Br house in Auckland is $550 a week http://www.interest.co.nz/property/58318/big-february-surge-median-weekly-rent-three-bedroom-auckland-houses-nz550

So, using online calculators, although the average rent in Auckland is $150 more than your "expensive rent" the accommodation supplement comes to $99, so that leave $50/week out of pocket , the equivalent of pay $450 a week rent.

So your budget is blown and thats on an above average income


Too bad if your kids need glasses to see, need to move to a cheaper/closer house, a school uniform or a cavity in a tooth.
the smallest infringement eg an overdue library book means weeks of re-arranging finances and often big penalties for doing so.
I came from a Lower socio economic environment, my parents however did not( in their childhood) , so I had the advantage of them valuing education and ethics.
I can totally understand how people give up on hope and go down the path of escapism.
By the time I was 30 I was firmly of the belief that being in business was the way to solve poverty but in hindsight that was because it simply does not take too long to forget.
 

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  Reply # 1128538 14-Sep-2014 20:27
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turnin:
sir1963:
nunz:
sir1963:
Technofreak: sir1963
Where did it go wrong, thats easy.
When I was young my dad worked, my mom was home.
There was someone in my home who had the time to teach me how to cook, how to read, arts and crafts. We walked home, we walked with friends, we socialised. We holidayed together.

Now we have children who are becoming parents who never knew this, both of their parents were in work, they have had none of the parenting, home skills passed on to them. Worse parents are often working weekends now too. Their holidays are too often in different times of the year meaning the family never holidays together either.

So now people bitch about the "break down of family values" , how can you have them when the family is never together ?

Real wages in real terms have dropped meaning parent now have to work longer hours to earn the same income as their parents did. More and more people have multiple part time jobs, leaving them even less time with the family.


You make some good points.

However I don't think any drop in real wages is the total cause of the problem you describe where there is less family time and no one at home to teach life skills.

Today every family has to have two cars, the latest wide screen TV, boat etc.  

Like you my Mum was a home executive, there was only one income.  We didn't have the latest gadgets in fact the first TV we ever had came from the my Grandmothers house after she died, I was at high school at the time.

Yes we walked or road our bikes to school and a lot of places in between.  I was lucky I got given a brand new bike for my 11th or 12th birthday. My younger sisters has to do with refurbished second hand bikes.  My Dad used to often ride about 10 km to work so as Mum had the car for the day when she needed it.

We always lived in the same 3 bedroom house which my parents owned. Our parents made do with one income. Hire purchase was never used if went couldn't afford it we didn't have it. The family car which was bought new in 1961 was 20 years old when it was replaced. We didn't go on holiday every year, we didn't have a lot of the things that are taken for granted today, but we never felt we were disadvantaged.

If many families toned down their spending the problem you raised above could be solved.



I am presuming that "Family" means those earning over $100,000
But lets look at it. Both parents need to get to work, and 99.9% won't be working the same hours at the same place, especially those who hold down 2-3 part time jobs. So owning 2 sub $1000 cars is not unrealistic. None of them would own a boat.

In your "glory times" they probably got a state advances loan at 3% fixed, they got $7/week (when $7 was good money) for each child they had, milk and bread cost a lot less in real terms, so did housing , schooling, and power, people could afford to live on one wage and they were better off than families today, I know mine did and so were many families I know.

The "new car" lots of people are buying is 20 years old when they buy it.

And many have NEVER been on holiday with their kids, they can't afford it.

"Toned down their spending"..... ROTFLMAO, they don't go to the Doctor because they can not afford it, Dentist.... never been side they left school, School uniforms are 2nd hand, so are shoes, etc etc.




I have four kids we go on holiday twice per year. However our total income in the hand is less than $800 per week of which half goes in rent alone. Now I have to consider luxuries such as cafe coffee, bought lunches, movies etc but by thinking ahead we make it. If I was to go on the dole I would have more money than I do now.

We have two older cars, I need one for work and my wife needs the other for dropping off kids etc. Two of our children are considered disabled. We spend a lot of money on visiting specialists, taking them to lessons (such as speech, riding etc - not all subsidised) to help them maximise their potential.

How do we do it? simple, we make our own lunches with home baked bread (home made bread is less than $1 per loaf if baked in a bread maker, electrical costs included). We dont have a television but we do have a computer (cobbled together from parts for less than $250). we also have a new play station 2 - we got it for Christmas last year. It cost almost nothing. My kids enjoy playing dora the explorer, driving games etc, and we dont really miss the newest shoot em ups.

We make our food from scratch, buy veggies and fruit when they are cheap and freeze / preserve them. BTW our freezer and washing machine were both second hand, older but they do the job.  we grow veggies etc.

Instead of expensive entertainment we go walkng in the hills, down to the beach, to the local pool occasionally. Our holidays are camping holidays - okains bay, arthurs pass, coes ford etc.

All this talk about families in poverty disturbs me. Chch is expensive to live in. But because I dont drink (much), dont smoke, dont do drugs and choose to get cheap weekly videos instead of new releases, play board games and do crafts instead of buying a $120 new PS4 game we seem to get by. My kids are well fed, they have warm clothes and while they would love more lollies, a PS4 and their own motor bikes they aren't really lacking anything.

like someone above said, we got our first bikes, probably second hand, when we were 12 - not 5. TV and other gadgets were fairly rare. I got my first watch when I was 10, my first transistor radio when I was 11 and saved up and went raspberry picking to afford my first electronic game (sports tronic).

I look at a lot of kids. They often have mobile phones - and not the $25 ones which txt and phone quite well but the easily broken smart phones. If they need phones to stay safe give them a $20 phone with a $20 2 degrees sim and renew it once per year. Dont spend $300 plus on a smart phone and $30-60 plus per month on a smart data plan.

Its not the big purchases that keep a lot of people in poverty but the little ones. $20 here, $50 there. look at a lot of houses phone bills. Its well over the $100 mark with internet, sky, mobile phones etc. And thats just the cheap plans.
The blenders and mixers, the ipads and pods, the phones, scooters, car radios etc. all little things but they add up. If most poorer people got rid of the electronic crap they would be far better off. Add smoking and weekly / daily  beer to the list, soft drinks, mac donalds and the other stuff that robs them poor a couple of dollars at a time.

Our food bill is around $150 per week - including pull ups. That feeds six well.

Two coffees a week (2 x $5) would remove $500 per year from our budget (1.25%)
Maccas once per fortnight ( 6 * $5-$7) would add $1000 per year (and we would still be hungry) (2.5%) of budget
One new release movie per week ($8.00) would cost $400 per year - 1% of our budget.
One beer per week would cost $5 per week or $250 per year - almost another 1%

The above list isn't extravagant for two adults and four kids. but it is over 5% of our budget per year gone - on little things.

Poverty starts with lack of education and continues through lack of self control. If we take the basic necessities of life for our family then we are looking at food, clothing, warmth and shelter
$400 per week rent
$60 per week clothes and shoes ( $500 per year per person)
$150 per week for food
$65 per week for electricity.
$20 per week for medical
TOTAL $695

Everything after that is a luxury. There is not a family in NZ, with three kids who is not eligable for at least the amount shown in tax credits etc. At a minimum wage of $13 per hour a forty hour week returns $520. of which
424.71 is gotten in the hand after kiwi saver etc. Add $281 per week from family tax credits for a total of  705.71  Above list covered.

Now is that barely scraping by - yup. but it is not poverty. It includes expensive rent, health, clothing and the basics of warmth, shelter, food and clothing. The above calculations dont take into account things such as accomodation suppliment of over $30 per week, the fact that only one parent working on minimum wage is unlikely and over time etc.

What it does show is that the minimum wage for an unskilled person is too low and that our wage / costs ratio are all wrong - but poverty in NZ? not when you break it down to the bare essentials that the WHO defines as poverty. Show me one person in NZ who claims poverty that doesn't have a bunch of electronic crap, a car, tv, dvd, microwave, phone, mobile phone etc. Child poverry - yes - but normally because the parents are in poverty through bad choices and/or education - not because of lack of opportunity or money.


So, $800  a week in the hand, that would place you pre tax in an "above average income" which is $844 pretax (= $43,888), median income for all people from all income sources is $575 a week.

Now when we take the tax of $43,888 (IRD calculator) = 6700.40 = 37,187.60 = $715.14

Now 50% of people earn LESS than this

So based on your figures they would have $20 a week for transport to and from school/work for the whole family, not possible in a city, and that is where most people in NZ are. If they all shifted to small towns then there would be the cry that they are deliberately going to where there are no jobs so they don't have to work.
I also don't see school fees for the kids, nor the expenses of any sports / school activities they may be involved in + school books etc that would cost more than $20 a week with 4 kids.
I don't see insurance (car or contents) , cost of looking after the property (mowing lawns etc), again more than $20 a week
Don't see Car registration or WOF, tyres, petrol etc about $10-20 a week per vehicle
Don't see your internet or phone, yet you must have that or you would not be on here about $15-20 a week minimum
What about HPs for the fridge/washing machine/ beds etc etc etc or is there money set aside for repairs/replacements for these too, say $10-20 a week
Nothing for birthdays or Xmas I see, say another $10 a week
Nothing for savings, what happens if you are ill, injured
How long could you survive if you go made redundant, the stand down period is 13 weeks, you would need $10,400 in savings to cover this
And of course the median rent for a 3Br house in Auckland is $550 a week http://www.interest.co.nz/property/58318/big-february-surge-median-weekly-rent-three-bedroom-auckland-houses-nz550

So, using online calculators, although the average rent in Auckland is $150 more than your "expensive rent" the accommodation supplement comes to $99, so that leave $50/week out of pocket , the equivalent of pay $450 a week rent.

So your budget is blown and thats on an above average income


Too bad if your kids need glasses to see, need to move to a cheaper/closer house, a school uniform or a cavity in a tooth.
the smallest infringement eg an overdue library book means weeks of re-arranging finances and often big penalties for doing so.
I came from a Lower socio economic environment, my parents however did not( in their childhood) , so I had the advantage of them valuing education and ethics.
I can totally understand how people give up on hope and go down the path of escapism.
By the time I was 30 I was firmly of the belief that being in business was the way to solve poverty but in hindsight that was because it simply does not take too long to forget.
 


The discussion is poverty. The example given above for a sigle income minimum wages family with three kids shows that poverty - ie letting your kids go hungry, is not really excusable in NZ>
Is being poorer hard. Yes. My family income is aorund $800 per week .The media for Nz is around $1300 If you looked at my budget you would see there is room in there for other things. On a minimum waged, 1 income family there is not, but there are very few people in that position.

Glasses are important - but they dont define poverty. Neither does school unifrom 9which was covered under clotihing in the 1 income example above. Dental is free for children. glasses are subsidised or free. 

giving up hope doesn't allow you to neglect your kids, it also doesn't allow you to turn to escapism at the cost of your family.

look - my family of four kids and 2 adults not only survives but thrives on around $800 per week. Is it tough? Yes. Is it stressful at times, yes. Is it poverty. Hell no.
I've known what it is like to be poorer than those around me most of my life. i grew up in a family where long term illness messed us up financially BUT - education, friendship, valuing non-material things, sports, physical activity, camping etc - these are all cheap / free.

I worked in in India in the poor areas for a while. the kids there were a happy lot most of the time. they played, laughed, giggled and played practical jokes on people.  The adults - worked hard, it was tough, but without welfare they got off their butts and made work. They begged, picked up trash, swept roads, held doors. etc. They were truely poor but I cannot remember ever hearing any of them complain. the difference betwen there and NZ, where we have so much is huge, and most of it is we bitch and moan aobut want we want but dont have and are not thankful we have what we truely need.





nunz

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  Reply # 1128540 14-Sep-2014 20:32
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So, $800  a week in the hand, that would place you pre tax in an "above average income" which is $844 pretax (= $43,888), median income for all people from all income sources is $575 a week.

Now when we take the tax of $43,888 (IRD calculator) = 6700.40 = 37,187.60 = $715.14

Now 50% of people earn LESS than this

So based on your figures they would have $20 a week for transport to and from school/work for the whole family, not possible in a city, and that is where most people in NZ are. If they all shifted to small towns then there would be the cry that they are deliberately going to where there are no jobs so they don't have to work.
I also don't see school fees for the kids, nor the expenses of any sports / school activities they may be involved in + school books etc that would cost more than $20 a week with 4 kids.
I don't see insurance (car or contents) , cost of looking after the property (mowing lawns etc), again more than $20 a week
Don't see Car registration or WOF, tyres, petrol etc about $10-20 a week per vehicle
Don't see your internet or phone, yet you must have that or you would not be on here about $15-20 a week minimum
What about HPs for the fridge/washing machine/ beds etc etc etc or is there money set aside for repairs/replacements for these too, say $10-20 a week
Nothing for birthdays or Xmas I see, say another $10 a week
Nothing for savings, what happens if you are ill, injured
How long could you survive if you go made redundant, the stand down period is 13 weeks, you would need $10,400 in savings to cover this
And of course the median rent for a 3Br house in Auckland is $550 a week http://www.interest.co.nz/property/58318/big-february-surge-median-weekly-rent-three-bedroom-auckland-houses-nz550

So, using online calculators, although the average rent in Auckland is $150 more than your "expensive rent" the accommodation supplement comes to $99, so that leave $50/week out of pocket , the equivalent of pay $450 a week rent.

So your budget is blown and thats on an above average income




Oh goody - statistics - so lets roll.

Firstly the major focus here is not on my income but on NZ HOUSEHOLD  incomes. In my house hold I earn above the average wage but my wife and I made a decision for her to stay home with the kids - so we are a one income family - putting us way below the median income for a house hold in NZ ($1300 ish).

The argument / discussion is about POVERTY and an example based on minimum wage.

Second - average is a bad figure to use. An extreme figure at the low or high end of the sample will skew it - so lets use median income, the income of the people smack bang on the 50% mark.
from Stats NZ

 

In the June 2013 quarter, median weekly income from wages and salaries (for those receiving this source of income) for people aged:

 

  • 15–24 years was $546
  • 25–49 years was $940

As you can see the stats are already skewed. most people with two to three kids are in the 25-49 age bracket. Adding a 15 year old into the sample makes a mess of the figures in the range we are talking about - those with families with 2 or more kids (three for the example above). Already I have knocked myself into the below media (ie lower 50% ) bracket.  Then the fact that the average house hold hads more than one income. Boom - another blow to your poverty theory.

Now lets get to the grist of this - my example was one person, earning one lowest possible income for a 40 hour week. and at that level they were not in poverty ( as defined by food, shelter, warmth and clothing).
This argument is about POVERTY. you have added cars, birthdays, holidays, Hire purchase, insurance, savings and  a raft of other NON-ESSENTIAL items to the argument.

Either you have mis-understood the paramters of this discussion or you are one of those whingers who thinks poverty is not being able to get Hire Purchase, Cars, holidays and Play stations. there is a third option, you are a troll in which case, congrats, I have just been successfully trolled.

I dont care if median rents in auckland are 450 per week or 550 per week.  If you are in real poverty you would move to somewhere less expensive.

In NZ we provide state houses to those who are without means to get houses. We provide income support for those who are earning too little. We provide benefits for those who cannot work .Those things do cover the basics to keep us out of poverty. they do not cover our wants very well.  Poverty is lack of essentials. Those we can get in NZ.

If my budget is blown on my 'above average personal but well bleow average for Nz households,  income how come we are going on holiday, our kids are fed, one child wears glasses, we take them to educational things, and I have trouble keeping weight off? did imention they play sport, visit friends, do wood work, enter science competitions, give to others?

you cannot tell me my budget is blown - seriously, its not.










nunz

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  Reply # 1128541 14-Sep-2014 20:39

Sir1963 seems unhappy that you are living within your means.  Not sure why.

gzt

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  Reply # 1128640 14-Sep-2014 22:35
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Well hang on the discussion is child poverty. Back on that topic the government has committed to free doctors visits and prescriptions for under 13. Most opposition parties would add free school meals to that. The Mana Party plans to add (or is that restore?) community control of number and location of liquor outlets and gambling opportunities. Many opposition parties are supportive of some kind of housing WOF standard. One key aspect of child poverty is respiratory illness and other issues related to inadequate housing. Imho the single biggest child poverty issue is housing standards. A lot of medical professionals seem to agree on that. We need to be asking ourselves what the state house of the 21st century should look like.

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  Reply # 1128642 14-Sep-2014 22:46
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I am not saying everything is to no avail, but give this give that give everything but if the parents are not interested what else can the government do?

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  Reply # 1128651 14-Sep-2014 23:07
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sir1963:
nunz:
Jase2985:
Rikkitic: I haven’t read all the comments but I did sample some. I don’t expect my 2 cents will change anything but here it is anyway: First, I don’t believe in left/right adversarial nonsense, just good ideas and bad ideas. Both sides have some of both. What always gets me about these types of discussions, though, is those who doggedly cling to their ideologies regardless of the consequences. In other words, the notion that children should be left to suffer because their parents are stupid or selfish or immoral or otherwise not of an acceptable standard. Enlightened self-interest says that society has to step in for its own protection regardless of whose fault it is. The alternative is to sit on your high horse claiming the moral high ground while the world crumbles around you as people raised without any values burgle your home, assault you on the street and do no productive work. I would far rather invest in turning these people around while they are still kids than building prisons for them all. And maybe the first generation freed from the hopelessness cycle might even choose to have fewer children. That seems to work elsewhere.


The kids shouldn't be made to suffer peroid, but the problem is throwing more money at the parents (because the government cant give the kids the money) doesn't necessarily help the children.

we need to help change the ideology to put the kids first in those at risk faimiles.

that to me is the biggest problem at the moment. the kids are not considered to be a priority


Provide school lunches for all children - works overseas, is cost effective, provides employment and ensure a healthy educated group of kids coming through. The cost savings on health and a few other areas as well as the increased employment, food sales etc all hlep offset the costs.



School lunches overseas are rubbish, sugar,fat,salt laden rubbish. They are NOT healthy options, they are "tendered out", given to the lowest bidder "To save tax dollars" and the quality is representative of that cost (as well as profit to the corporation supplying it).



That's a pretty sweeping statement. How many school lunches overseas have you eaten?!

I ate overseas school breakfast, lunch and dinner for 36 weeks a year from the age of 7 and a half until I left University at 21. 

Rest assured that the food was generally not bad at all. One or two exceptions due mainly to my personal tastes of course (e.g. salad which would be illegal in a sane world!).





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  Reply # 1128715 15-Sep-2014 07:07
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Bobdn: Sir1963 seems unhappy that you are living within your means.  Not sure why.


Not at all, I just don't believe that maths.
6 people going on holidays but there is no budgeted item, even a DOC camp ground would be $420 a week
A Car to transport them was not mentioned , and to take all that camping gear, probably have a trailer for the vehicle is even bigger

And of course it all lies on the basis of no long period of illness or worse being laid off, and both of these things are common



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  Reply # 1128716 15-Sep-2014 07:09
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Geektastic:
sir1963:
nunz:
Jase2985:
Rikkitic: I haven’t read all the comments but I did sample some. I don’t expect my 2 cents will change anything but here it is anyway: First, I don’t believe in left/right adversarial nonsense, just good ideas and bad ideas. Both sides have some of both. What always gets me about these types of discussions, though, is those who doggedly cling to their ideologies regardless of the consequences. In other words, the notion that children should be left to suffer because their parents are stupid or selfish or immoral or otherwise not of an acceptable standard. Enlightened self-interest says that society has to step in for its own protection regardless of whose fault it is. The alternative is to sit on your high horse claiming the moral high ground while the world crumbles around you as people raised without any values burgle your home, assault you on the street and do no productive work. I would far rather invest in turning these people around while they are still kids than building prisons for them all. And maybe the first generation freed from the hopelessness cycle might even choose to have fewer children. That seems to work elsewhere.


The kids shouldn't be made to suffer peroid, but the problem is throwing more money at the parents (because the government cant give the kids the money) doesn't necessarily help the children.

we need to help change the ideology to put the kids first in those at risk faimiles.

that to me is the biggest problem at the moment. the kids are not considered to be a priority


Provide school lunches for all children - works overseas, is cost effective, provides employment and ensure a healthy educated group of kids coming through. The cost savings on health and a few other areas as well as the increased employment, food sales etc all hlep offset the costs.



School lunches overseas are rubbish, sugar,fat,salt laden rubbish. They are NOT healthy options, they are "tendered out", given to the lowest bidder "To save tax dollars" and the quality is representative of that cost (as well as profit to the corporation supplying it).



That's a pretty sweeping statement. How many school lunches overseas have you eaten?!

I ate overseas school breakfast, lunch and dinner for 36 weeks a year from the age of 7 and a half until I left University at 21. 

Rest assured that the food was generally not bad at all. One or two exceptions due mainly to my personal tastes of course (e.g. salad which would be illegal in a sane world!).



Yeah I have seen Jamie Oliver, there is a big difference between the food you liked and "Good Food"

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