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  Reply # 1120070 1-Sep-2014 22:26
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richms: Im telling them to avoid feeding the campbell live BS machine.


BS?

http://www.childpoverty.co.nz/

http://www.occ.org.nz/assets/Uploads/EAG/Working-papers/Statistics-NZ-Measuring-Child-Poverty-final.pdf

Are you claiming the issue doesn't exist, or you just don't care because you've got yours and you don't see the problem in your day to day life?

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  Reply # 1120098 1-Sep-2014 22:48
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ripdog:

Are you claiming the issue doesn't exist, or you just don't care because you've got yours and you don't see the problem in your day to day life?


I am saying that shows like campbell live are only over it to increase viewership and therefore value to their customers.

The issue exists, its not up to a dogood tv host to be solving it.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 1120116 1-Sep-2014 23:16
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alasta: I agree, but what are policy makers supposed to do? You can't just leave the kids to suffer, and you can't forcibly remove anyone's ability to have kids without violating their human rights.


Easy. You merely alter their rights. They are only words on paper - you can change them any time.





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  Reply # 1120117 1-Sep-2014 23:19
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There remains no doubt in my mind that if you need a licence to drive a car, you most certainly need one to have children and vote. They are both WAY harder to do properly.





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  Reply # 1120127 1-Sep-2014 23:56
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JimmyH: It's a multi-faceted problem, and there are a variety of circumstances out there.

Those who ripdog labels tries to apply the pejorative of "righties" to can always find clear examples of annoyingly feckless and incompetent people who are fully to blame for their own circumstances, irresponsibly serially produce kids they can't afford, and loudly demand that the government is responsible and must pay. And there are actually plenty of people like that out there. Those on the other side of the political spectrum can always find examples of hard-working families who are in difficulty through things beyond their reasonable control, and there are plenty of those out there as well. And there are a whole bunch of people who fall between these extremes as well. But actually picking straw men (by either side) is more than a bit asinine.

Because poverty is complex, there isn't a magical panacea solution that will somehow fix it. In some cases a form of welfare "tough love" is clearly warranted. In other cases more assistance and support (say topping up the wages of someone who has skills that aren't worth the minimum wage, or paying for training, or funding the modification of a disabled person's house so that they can remain at home and/or remain employed is a good idea. In other cases helping large families afford costs - rent, food, power is the right solution.

But part of a long-term solution is breaking the cycle. Not just immediate help but by trying to ensure that everyone has access to an education, and (as far as their basic talent realistically permits) a chance to acquire the skills that they need to earn a decent living.

But whatever is done also has to be affordable, tolerable to the majority who pay for it through taxes, and sustainable - and also not create crazy behavioural incentives. For instance, a capable person ought to earn materially more in a basic job than they do on welfare, otherwise there is no incentive to work.

Ultimately it's economic settings and performance that determine wealth - through skills, investment and productive endeavour. Absent a fairy godmother or tooth fairy, windmilling your arms and loudly shouting "Greater wealth. There's no ifs and buts about it." is infantile unless you go the next step and outline the evidence-based economic policies needed to generate that wealth. If it isn't generated, it isn't there to be gathered and shared.


how about subsidised VOLUNTARY sterilisation (AKA 'the snip')

I've had my two, and that's all I can afford to raise 'properly', and now have to decide wether to become a citizen this year ($450) or ensure I don't have another child ($400) as I can't afford both while being a sole breadwinner, since I don't believe in teachers raising my preschool aged sons either (I'm a teacher too!)

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  Reply # 1120130 2-Sep-2014 00:10
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ripdog: Always love the righties coming out on these stories to tell everyone about how poor people are obviously just poor because they're stupid, because they have too many kids, because they make bad decisions and *someone* needs to make these people responsible! Won't *someone* do something?

Yeah, well, there's one solution to this problem. Greater wealth. There's no ifs and buts about it. Poor families create a cycle of basically everything bad - poor education, leading to poor decision making, leading to poor work opportunities. Poor people have less access to contraceptives, poorer sex ed, and poorer social environments - leading to bigger families. Bigger families lead to worse education, kids with lower expectations in life, kids more likely to feel like there is nothing left for them but crime. Poverty is the root cause of all of this.

So, how does Geekzone propose we solve the problem?

gnfb: Let's stop the poor people breeding! Yeah, I love chinese solutions too.

kawaii: "Parental accountability" This is a favourite phrase of welfare-bashers who just want to say "It's the POOOR PEOPLE's fault for not TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!". Yeah, nice easy solution for you, mate, eh? Requires no thinking, and you feel vindicated as you dehumanise the 'problem'!

"people fixated that they must get married by a certain time" Seriously? I think you'll find most of these families are the result of shotgun weddings to make the best of unwanted pregnancies. Remember, abortion is only legal in NZ if two doctors agree that a woman is in danger from her pregnancy - not because she simply didn't mean to have it.

Geektastic: "Other people are poorer, thus NZ poverty doesn't exist and people should stop whining". Yeah, because other countries are worse, we should simply throw up our hands and leave the problem alone. Let the kids go to bed hungry and wake up with a stomach digesting itself. F* em', they made bad decisions.

So what are some real solutions? Well, how about feeding the dam* kids? Despite the fact that Campbell Live present a workable and proven-effective strategy (as attested by the featured principals), all we hear about on GZ is about how poor people need to stop having kids.

I donated $100 to kidscan, and I hope all of you pitched in whatever you can afford. I'm also probably voting for the Greens - the only party actually making a real stand on this issue.


I was going to post a response but you've said everything I would have said. Except about those who consider their tax bill (and how to minimise it) is more important to them than behaving like a human being and 'doing their bit' for those less well off than themselves.

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  Reply # 1120131 2-Sep-2014 00:25
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kawaii:.

I did not see the item. The main thing I picked up from your post was two kids are ok, five or six kids are bad. This seems a bit arbitrary without other factors.

kawaii: I think it is less a planned way of getting more money and more to do with people thinking with their genitals rather than their heads.

Did they ask religion? Surprisingly it is a genuine factor of belief with some religious.

Geektastic:
alasta: I agree, but what are policy makers supposed to do? You can't just leave the kids to suffer, and you can't forcibly remove anyone's ability to have kids without violating their human rights.


Easy. You merely alter their rights. They are only words on paper - you can change them any time.

As far as reproduction goes you really are talking about an active suppression.

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  Reply # 1120132 2-Sep-2014 00:27
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MaxLV:
ripdog: Always love the righties coming out on these stories to tell everyone about how poor people are obviously just poor because they're stupid, because they have too many kids, because they make bad decisions and *someone* needs to make these people responsible! Won't *someone* do something?

Yeah, well, there's one solution to this problem. Greater wealth. There's no ifs and buts about it. Poor families create a cycle of basically everything bad - poor education, leading to poor decision making, leading to poor work opportunities. Poor people have less access to contraceptives, poorer sex ed, and poorer social environments - leading to bigger families. Bigger families lead to worse education, kids with lower expectations in life, kids more likely to feel like there is nothing left for them but crime. Poverty is the root cause of all of this.

So, how does Geekzone propose we solve the problem?

gnfb: Let's stop the poor people breeding! Yeah, I love chinese solutions too.

kawaii: "Parental accountability" This is a favourite phrase of welfare-bashers who just want to say "It's the POOOR PEOPLE's fault for not TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!". Yeah, nice easy solution for you, mate, eh? Requires no thinking, and you feel vindicated as you dehumanise the 'problem'!

"people fixated that they must get married by a certain time" Seriously? I think you'll find most of these families are the result of shotgun weddings to make the best of unwanted pregnancies. Remember, abortion is only legal in NZ if two doctors agree that a woman is in danger from her pregnancy - not because she simply didn't mean to have it.

Geektastic: "Other people are poorer, thus NZ poverty doesn't exist and people should stop whining". Yeah, because other countries are worse, we should simply throw up our hands and leave the problem alone. Let the kids go to bed hungry and wake up with a stomach digesting itself. F* em', they made bad decisions.

So what are some real solutions? Well, how about feeding the dam* kids? Despite the fact that Campbell Live present a workable and proven-effective strategy (as attested by the featured principals), all we hear about on GZ is about how poor people need to stop having kids.

I donated $100 to kidscan, and I hope all of you pitched in whatever you can afford. I'm also probably voting for the Greens - the only party actually making a real stand on this issue.


I was going to post a response but you've said everything I would have said. Except about those who consider their tax bill (and how to minimise it) is more important to them than behaving like a human being and 'doing their bit' for those less well off than themselves.


So will you be selling all your assets and donating all your income to said charities?

I come from generations of beneficiaries, and a some of my siblings are continuing down the path, however I woke one day and decided I didn't want to live like this, made a plan and executed it. I haven't been given much in my life, I work for what I have, and understand both having enough money and not having enough. 

I don't mind helping the genuinely hard up cases, I see them a bit, but I still believe people need to make choices that enable themselves.

My kids will likely never know the situation of not having money for birthday gifts, camps or other things that a lot of kids take for granted (As I did), but my wife and I are working hard to try and give them the best understanding of hard work, and value of money we can. They have chores (at 5 and 2) and responsibilities too.

I firmly believe that less than 1% of New Zealanders have NO choices, and I also believe that we have very few genuine cases of poverty by world standards.

We could afford more than 2 kids, but won't have more because *WE* believe we can only do justice to two kids.



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  Reply # 1120133 2-Sep-2014 00:41
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nathan: Raise taxes off all these rich pricks and redistribute it too these poor families who cant say no to having more offspring even though they are already not well off


Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not?

Raising the taxes won't benefit the poor at all. Sure it'll give some assistance in the short term but what about the future?

I'm studying full time right now, and trying to find work that has a super flexible schedule is near impossible with the amount of students wanting the same thing. But because my parents both earn over the top tax bracket, and pay over 1/3rd of their income to the government, I don't see a single cent of that as assistance from the govt/studylink. Parents can't afford to pay my gas to and from uni each day, or pay for rent closer to campus. I now have a near 40K student loan as a result, and all because I chose to get qualified and make something of my life. When I start working, I'll be paying tax which some will go to those who don't work. Then on top of that I have to pay back every single cent the government has given me.

I think instead of punishing those who chose to make something of themselves, we should be developing ways to get everyone qualifications, or start making community jobs to let those who are on benefits earn their way and maybe some more. That way people get work experience and skills under their belt to help make finding jobs easier, and hopefully start more businesses as a result.  




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  Reply # 1120134 2-Sep-2014 00:44
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networkn:

I haven't been given much in my life, I work for what I have, and understand both having enough money and not having enough. 

I don't mind helping the genuinely hard up cases, I see them a bit, but I still believe people need to make choices that enable themselves.

My kids will likely never know the situation of not having money for birthday gifts, camps or other things that a lot of kids take for granted (As I did), but my wife and I are working hard to try and give them the best understanding of hard work, and value of money we can. They have chores (at 5 and 2) and responsibilities too.

I firmly believe that less than 1% of New Zealanders have NO choices, and I also believe that we have very few genuine cases of poverty by world standards.

We could afford more than 2 kids, but won't have more because *WE* believe we can only do justice to two kids.




Agree absolutely!

I got nothing financial from my family but the basic necessities and a sense of duty to look after myself, and no help from the state either (South Africa).

I worked for everything I now have, and am working hard tto do much better for my children. I firmly believe that, by and large, people set their own limits and reach them. I teach primary school children and have seen many over the years who overcome their starting lack of silver spoon tto reach for the stars and change them! These children are not always smarter, stronger or even 'better able' than others to do so, but are determined to 'make something of life' and set out to do so from as young as 7 or 8.

It IS harder for those who start with less, but definitely possible for any without physical or mental disabilities.

HOWEVER, I am happy tto support a country like NZ in their effort to give each child that chance! though feel strongly that their parents should be given strong incentives to work for their keep, and not depend on others to provide for them or their families.

Why are WINZ payments cash? Booze and cigarettes are luxury items for those that earn them, would not food vouchers (or credits) make for healthier and happier WINZ families? It is NOT a human right for my tax-supported neighbour to have a 60" TV, smoke like a chimney, and drink and party every other weekend in her HousingNZ rented home JUST because she gets knocked up each time her youngest reaches school age!

...now where did that rant come from I wonder...??

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  Reply # 1120168 2-Sep-2014 03:58
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I saw only the second half of the Campbell story but I'm very much in Richard MS's camp and others like him. TV stories like that make me mad. Clearly there are genuine needy cases but when that story said half of South Auckland kids go to school without breakfast and a quarter of them without breakfast or lunch, you have to look at the quality of the parenting. The old cliche is correct: "How much does it cost to give kids a couple of pieces of toast and/or a couple of Weetbix?".

I would love to know how many of the parents of those kids have beer, cigs, buy Lotto etc. What really are those parents' priorities? How many of those parents go hungry themselves? Perhaps a lot of these parents just don't actually give a sh*t about their kids.

If you put dodgy parenting to one side you can say "the problem exists, it's not the kids' fault, we need to look after them". I accept that but what message does feeding the kids at school send to the parents? You now have no responsibility to give your kids breakfast or lunch - the school does it? Then parents who currently do feed their kids, stop feeding their kids due to the school breakfasts and lunches. So is all this a reason to not feed the kids? Is it possible to distinguish the truly needy kids from the slack-parents kids? Probably not so maybe we have to grit our teeth and feed them and reward the slack parents' behaviour. This is a form of Moral Hazard and it makes me mad.

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  Reply # 1120169 2-Sep-2014 04:22
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tardtasticx: I'm studying full time right now, and trying to find work that has a super flexible schedule is near impossible with the amount of students wanting the same thing. But because my parents both earn over the top tax bracket, and pay over 1/3rd of their income to the government, I don't see a single cent of that as assistance from the govt/studylink. Parents can't afford to pay my gas to and from uni each day, or pay for rent closer to campus. I now have a near 40K student loan as a result, and all because I chose to get qualified and make something of my life. When I start working, I'll be paying tax which some will go to those who don't work. Then on top of that I have to pay back every single cent the government has given me.

I hate to break it to you but the government is giving you much more than a 'single cent of assistance' - approximately 80% of the cost of your university degree is paid for by the government.  You're also getting an interest free loan, which over the course of the loan is a substantial subsidy.

I don't know whether your realise how subsidised university study is, but as someone who works in the tertiary sector, it is always surprising to me how few students understand the full cost of providing tertiary education...

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  Reply # 1120184 2-Sep-2014 06:12
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k1wi:
tardtasticx: I'm studying full time right now, and trying to find work that has a super flexible schedule is near impossible with the amount of students wanting the same thing. But because my parents both earn over the top tax bracket, and pay over 1/3rd of their income to the government, I don't see a single cent of that as assistance from the govt/studylink. Parents can't afford to pay my gas to and from uni each day, or pay for rent closer to campus. I now have a near 40K student loan as a result, and all because I chose to get qualified and make something of my life. When I start working, I'll be paying tax which some will go to those who don't work. Then on top of that I have to pay back every single cent the government has given me.

I hate to break it to you but the government is giving you much more than a 'single cent of assistance' - approximately 80% of the cost of your university degree is paid for by the government.  You're also getting an interest free loan, which over the course of the loan is a substantial subsidy.

I don't know whether your realise how subsidised university study is, but as someone who works in the tertiary sector, it is always surprising to me how few students understand the full cost of providing tertiary education...


Compare International to Domestic student fees for a pretty good indication.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120200 2-Sep-2014 07:48
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kawaii: Just watching Campbell Live now: http://www.3news.co.nz/TVShows/CampbellLive (article not up on the website yet).

They were going from family to family checking out their fringes and what they had inside - I thought to myself "this will be interesting".

The first was a solo parent with two kids, no smokes, no alcohol - just the bare necessities and not even a car. All good, a legitimate example of someone struggling and trying to make ends meet and someone I have no problem helping out because it appears she is what I'd call 'the genuinely needy'.

Then the next two families, parents plus five kids followed by another family of parents with six kids; do the parents even think of asking themselves whether they had the means to support their kids before having them? I can understand wanting to help the kids but here are two problems:

1) If you're not going to address the bad decision making then you'll have the next generation repeating the same mistakes their parents made and the cycle will repeat indefinitely.

2) Parental accountability to send a clear message to the community that you don't just go out, make lifestyle choices then expect the rest of society to pick up the pieces - it isn't fair on tax payers and it isn't fair on the kids who are born into such a situation.

Just had to vent because it frustrates me no end when I see these stories on Campbell Live.

Oh, and I'm not an ACT/National Party voter.


Did YOU ever think the did have jobs when they had the kids and had been laid off

As for being FAIR on the tax payers, how about that 5+ BILLION that large corporates have failed to pay in taxes.

OR if you want to aim lower, how about all those who still work or have sizeable incomes and still get the pension.

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  Reply # 1120203 2-Sep-2014 07:52
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networkn:
MaxLV:
ripdog: Always love the righties coming out on these stories to tell everyone about how poor people are obviously just poor because they're stupid, because they have too many kids, because they make bad decisions and *someone* needs to make these people responsible! Won't *someone* do something?

Yeah, well, there's one solution to this problem. Greater wealth. There's no ifs and buts about it. Poor families create a cycle of basically everything bad - poor education, leading to poor decision making, leading to poor work opportunities. Poor people have less access to contraceptives, poorer sex ed, and poorer social environments - leading to bigger families. Bigger families lead to worse education, kids with lower expectations in life, kids more likely to feel like there is nothing left for them but crime. Poverty is the root cause of all of this.

So, how does Geekzone propose we solve the problem?

gnfb: Let's stop the poor people breeding! Yeah, I love chinese solutions too.

kawaii: "Parental accountability" This is a favourite phrase of welfare-bashers who just want to say "It's the POOOR PEOPLE's fault for not TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!". Yeah, nice easy solution for you, mate, eh? Requires no thinking, and you feel vindicated as you dehumanise the 'problem'!

"people fixated that they must get married by a certain time" Seriously? I think you'll find most of these families are the result of shotgun weddings to make the best of unwanted pregnancies. Remember, abortion is only legal in NZ if two doctors agree that a woman is in danger from her pregnancy - not because she simply didn't mean to have it.

Geektastic: "Other people are poorer, thus NZ poverty doesn't exist and people should stop whining". Yeah, because other countries are worse, we should simply throw up our hands and leave the problem alone. Let the kids go to bed hungry and wake up with a stomach digesting itself. F* em', they made bad decisions.

So what are some real solutions? Well, how about feeding the dam* kids? Despite the fact that Campbell Live present a workable and proven-effective strategy (as attested by the featured principals), all we hear about on GZ is about how poor people need to stop having kids.

I donated $100 to kidscan, and I hope all of you pitched in whatever you can afford. I'm also probably voting for the Greens - the only party actually making a real stand on this issue.


I was going to post a response but you've said everything I would have said. Except about those who consider their tax bill (and how to minimise it) is more important to them than behaving like a human being and 'doing their bit' for those less well off than themselves.


So will you be selling all your assets and donating all your income to said charities?

I come from generations of beneficiaries, and a some of my siblings are continuing down the path, however I woke one day and decided I didn't want to live like this, made a plan and executed it. I haven't been given much in my life, I work for what I have, and understand both having enough money and not having enough. 

I don't mind helping the genuinely hard up cases, I see them a bit, but I still believe people need to make choices that enable themselves.

My kids will likely never know the situation of not having money for birthday gifts, camps or other things that a lot of kids take for granted (As I did), but my wife and I are working hard to try and give them the best understanding of hard work, and value of money we can. They have chores (at 5 and 2) and responsibilities too.

I firmly believe that less than 1% of New Zealanders have NO choices, and I also believe that we have very few genuine cases of poverty by world standards.

We could afford more than 2 kids, but won't have more because *WE* believe we can only do justice to two kids.






Ahh yes, and I assume you can afford to pay for contraception, doctors visits etc.

As for choices, you need to HAVE choices to be able to make them.


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