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  Reply # 1120206 2-Sep-2014 08:00
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From someone who has been the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, yes there is poverty in NZ, real poverty but admitting it takes people out of their comfort zone. Yes there are folks that made bad choices, who hasn't. There are folks that are milking the system, something not restricted to just the poor.

NZ needs to wake up and face up to this issue in a non judgemental, non selfish, and without prejudice or things will get considerably worse.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1120228 2-Sep-2014 09:09
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Feeding kids at school IS the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. It's much needed in some places but it sets a bad precedent in my view. It's yet another thing some parents will view they don't have to worry about, and something many of the kids getting fed will assume will just happen for their kids too. 

The focus of the fix needs to go back on the parents.

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  Reply # 1120252 2-Sep-2014 09:28
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My only real complaint is when a safety net becomes a hammock. Campbell could have just as easily found examples of abuse of the system as he did deserving cases. But that doesn't fit his agenda. It is human nature for some to rort the system while the majority are grateful for the assistance.
As someone who pays about 50% of my salary already in taxes (PAYE, GST, fuel excise, LB rates) and additional supplementary fees (school donations, medical insurance, etc) I object in equal parts to:
The money wasted on the feckless (not the deserving),
and to those, who through loopholes, don't pay their fair share.
I for one am sick of bearing more than my fair share of the burden such that it becomes difficult to support my family and plan for my own future. So Campbell's push for for me to give even more sticks in my craw I'm afraid.




Areas of Geek interest: Home Theatre, HTPC, Android Tablets & Phones, iProducts.

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  Reply # 1120258 2-Sep-2014 09:37
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JimmyC: Feeding kids at school IS the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. It's much needed in some places but it sets a bad precedent in my view. It's yet another thing some parents will view they don't have to worry about, and something many of the kids getting fed will assume will just happen for their kids too. 

The focus of the fix needs to go back on the parents.


take away the ambulance, the situation still exists but far far worse.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120282 2-Sep-2014 10:01
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networkn:
MaxLV:
ripdog: Always love the righties coming out on these stories to tell everyone about how poor people are obviously just poor because they're stupid, because they have too many kids, because they make bad decisions and *someone* needs to make these people responsible! Won't *someone* do something?

Yeah, well, there's one solution to this problem. Greater wealth. There's no ifs and buts about it. Poor families create a cycle of basically everything bad - poor education, leading to poor decision making, leading to poor work opportunities. Poor people have less access to contraceptives, poorer sex ed, and poorer social environments - leading to bigger families. Bigger families lead to worse education, kids with lower expectations in life, kids more likely to feel like there is nothing left for them but crime. Poverty is the root cause of all of this.

So, how does Geekzone propose we solve the problem?

gnfb: Let's stop the poor people breeding! Yeah, I love chinese solutions too.

kawaii: "Parental accountability" This is a favourite phrase of welfare-bashers who just want to say "It's the POOOR PEOPLE's fault for not TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!". Yeah, nice easy solution for you, mate, eh? Requires no thinking, and you feel vindicated as you dehumanise the 'problem'!

"people fixated that they must get married by a certain time" Seriously? I think you'll find most of these families are the result of shotgun weddings to make the best of unwanted pregnancies. Remember, abortion is only legal in NZ if two doctors agree that a woman is in danger from her pregnancy - not because she simply didn't mean to have it.

Geektastic: "Other people are poorer, thus NZ poverty doesn't exist and people should stop whining". Yeah, because other countries are worse, we should simply throw up our hands and leave the problem alone. Let the kids go to bed hungry and wake up with a stomach digesting itself. F* em', they made bad decisions.

So what are some real solutions? Well, how about feeding the dam* kids? Despite the fact that Campbell Live present a workable and proven-effective strategy (as attested by the featured principals), all we hear about on GZ is about how poor people need to stop having kids.

I donated $100 to kidscan, and I hope all of you pitched in whatever you can afford. I'm also probably voting for the Greens - the only party actually making a real stand on this issue.


I was going to post a response but you've said everything I would have said. Except about those who consider their tax bill (and how to minimise it) is more important to them than behaving like a human being and 'doing their bit' for those less well off than themselves.


So will you be selling all your assets and donating all your income to said charities?

I come from generations of beneficiaries, and a some of my siblings are continuing down the path, however I woke one day and decided I didn't want to live like this, made a plan and executed it. I haven't been given much in my life, I work for what I have, and understand both having enough money and not having enough. 

I don't mind helping the genuinely hard up cases, I see them a bit, but I still believe people need to make choices that enable themselves.

My kids will likely never know the situation of not having money for birthday gifts, camps or other things that a lot of kids take for granted (As I did), but my wife and I are working hard to try and give them the best understanding of hard work, and value of money we can. They have chores (at 5 and 2) and responsibilities too.

I firmly believe that less than 1% of New Zealanders have NO choices, and I also believe that we have very few genuine cases of poverty by world standards.

We could afford more than 2 kids, but won't have more because *WE* believe we can only do justice to two kids.





NO I wont sell my 'assets' few that they are, but neither do I begrudge a significant portion of my tax dollar going to help those less well off than I am. Why? because I KNOW that most of the tax that you, me, and every other tax payer in NZ pay subsidises yours and  my lifestyle choices a damned site more than it does than those that are less well off than me. You're a bigger drain on the tax dollar than any beneficiary and their family will ever be! And you want to minimise the tax *YOU* pay?  

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  Reply # 1120286 2-Sep-2014 10:06
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tardtasticx:
nathan: Raise taxes off all these rich pricks and redistribute it too these poor families who cant say no to having more offspring even though they are already not well off


Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not?

Raising the taxes won't benefit the poor at all. Sure it'll give some assistance in the short term but what about the future?

I'm studying full time right now, and trying to find work that has a super flexible schedule is near impossible with the amount of students wanting the same thing. But because my parents both earn over the top tax bracket, and pay over 1/3rd of their income to the government, I don't see a single cent of that as assistance from the govt/studylink. Parents can't afford to pay my gas to and from uni each day, or pay for rent closer to campus. I now have a near 40K student loan as a result, and all because I chose to get qualified and make something of my life. When I start working, I'll be paying tax which some will go to those who don't work. Then on top of that I have to pay back every single cent the government has given me.

I think instead of punishing those who chose to make something of themselves, we should be developing ways to get everyone qualifications, or start making community jobs to let those who are on benefits earn their way and maybe some more. That way people get work experience and skills under their belt to help make finding jobs easier, and hopefully start more businesses as a result.  


And of course you believe you, and your parents are paying the *full* cost of your lifestyle choices dont you. You no doubt believe that you and your parents dont benefit in any way at all from the tax you do have to pay....

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  Reply # 1120289 2-Sep-2014 10:08
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richms:
ripdog: Donate to a fantastic charity making drastic improvements in the live of impoverished children? Screw them, right, the attention seekers? You aren't donating to campbell live, you do realise?


Im not donating anywhere because campbell live decided to promote this charity to attract discussion and viewership. I donate where I see fit.


What do you 'see' if you dont get shown?




Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

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  Reply # 1120297 2-Sep-2014 10:13
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I have not read all of the posts in this topic.

I feel, there are people that breed to stay on the welfare. There are also people that genuinely need assistance. The bad ruin it for the good. I do not know what the solution is, but I deplore the attitude of the people that believe the government must pay for their personal choices.

Slightly off topic, but I see there is at least one Green Party voter in here:
What is the Green's policy on how many children we should have? My opinion is that the biggest threat to the earth/environment is over-population. IMO there are too many people on this planet now, and soon we will not be able to feed ourselves. Surely the Greens should be advocating birth control and smaller families?
(also, why will the Greens never work with National? Surely they are about the environment, not left wing politics? I think the Greens have lost their way).

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  Reply # 1120298 2-Sep-2014 10:14
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Dingbatt: My only real complaint is when a safety net becomes a hammock. Campbell could have just as easily found examples of abuse of the system as he did deserving cases. But that doesn't fit his agenda. It is human nature for some to rort the system while the majority are grateful for the assistance.
As someone who pays about 50% of my salary already in taxes (PAYE, GST, fuel excise, LB rates) and additional supplementary fees (school donations, medical insurance, etc) I object in equal parts to:
The money wasted on the feckless (not the deserving),
and to those, who through loopholes, don't pay their fair share.
I for one am sick of bearing more than my fair share of the burden such that it becomes difficult to support my family and plan for my own future. So Campbell's push for for me to give even more sticks in my craw I'm afraid.
 

All the while you *ignore* the benefits *you and yours* get from the taxs you *have to pay*.

If you REALLY believe you dont benefit in any way at all  from the taxes YOU personally pay, then you have no clue on where your tax dollars go and what tax is for. I'd like to see you try to pay the real cost of the lifestyle choices you make for yourself and your 'dependants'.  You're a bigger dependant on the tax system than any beneficiary and their families will ever be. 


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  Reply # 1120301 2-Sep-2014 10:17
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NO I wont sell my 'assets' few that they are, but neither do I begrudge a significant portion of my tax dollar going to help those less well off than I am. Why? because I KNOW that most of the tax that you, me, and every other tax payer in NZ pay subsidises yours and  my lifestyle choices a damned site more than it does than those that are less well off than me. You're a bigger drain on the tax dollar than any beneficiary and their family will ever be! And you want to minimise the tax *YOU* pay?  


Please explain your claims?

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  Reply # 1120303 2-Sep-2014 10:20
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trig42: I have not read all of the posts in this topic.

I feel, there are people that breed to stay on the welfare. There are also people that genuinely need assistance. The bad ruin it for the good. I do not know what the solution is, but I deplore the attitude of the people that believe the government must pay for their personal choices.

Slightly off topic, but I see there is at least one Green Party voter in here:
What is the Green's policy on how many children we should have? My opinion is that the biggest threat to the earth/environment is over-population. IMO there are too many people on this planet now, and soon we will not be able to feed ourselves. Surely the Greens should be advocating birth control and smaller families?
(also, why will the Greens never work with National? Surely they are about the environment, not left wing politics? I think the Greens have lost their way).


The levels of benefit abuse in NZ is very low compared with overseas examples. I read a report a few years back that suggested that the level of tax abuse was at higher levels than benefit abuse.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


650 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120310 2-Sep-2014 10:35
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networkn:
 


NO I wont sell my 'assets' few that they are, but neither do I begrudge a significant portion of my tax dollar going to help those less well off than I am. Why? because I KNOW that most of the tax that you, me, and every other tax payer in NZ pay subsidises yours and  my lifestyle choices a damned site more than it does than those that are less well off than me. You're a bigger drain on the tax dollar than any beneficiary and their family will ever be! And you want to minimise the tax *YOU* pay?  


Please explain your claims?


They're not claims. Do you even have a clue how the Government spends your tax dollar?

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  Reply # 1120313 2-Sep-2014 10:41
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MaxLV:
networkn:
 


NO I wont sell my 'assets' few that they are, but neither do I begrudge a significant portion of my tax dollar going to help those less well off than I am. Why? because I KNOW that most of the tax that you, me, and every other tax payer in NZ pay subsidises yours and  my lifestyle choices a damned site more than it does than those that are less well off than me. You're a bigger drain on the tax dollar than any beneficiary and their family will ever be! And you want to minimise the tax *YOU* pay?  


Please explain your claims?


They're not claims. Do you even have a clue how the Government spends your tax dollar?


Yes I do, hence the question for an explanation from you.

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  Reply # 1120314 2-Sep-2014 10:43
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MaxLV:
tardtasticx:
nathan: Raise taxes off all these rich pricks and redistribute it too these poor families who cant say no to having more offspring even though they are already not well off


Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not?

Raising the taxes won't benefit the poor at all. Sure it'll give some assistance in the short term but what about the future?

I'm studying full time right now, and trying to find work that has a super flexible schedule is near impossible with the amount of students wanting the same thing. But because my parents both earn over the top tax bracket, and pay over 1/3rd of their income to the government, I don't see a single cent of that as assistance from the govt/studylink. Parents can't afford to pay my gas to and from uni each day, or pay for rent closer to campus. I now have a near 40K student loan as a result, and all because I chose to get qualified and make something of my life. When I start working, I'll be paying tax which some will go to those who don't work. Then on top of that I have to pay back every single cent the government has given me.

I think instead of punishing those who chose to make something of themselves, we should be developing ways to get everyone qualifications, or start making community jobs to let those who are on benefits earn their way and maybe some more. That way people get work experience and skills under their belt to help make finding jobs easier, and hopefully start more businesses as a result.  


And of course you believe you, and your parents are paying the *full* cost of your lifestyle choices dont you. You no doubt believe that you and your parents dont benefit in any way at all from the tax you do have to pay....


I'm not sure mine do. They do not (and never have) lived in NZ. With a household tax bill over $50,000 a year, I have to say I don't think we personally benefit that much - I could provide pretty much most of what the State provides me in return for that money using the private sector and get change.

I looked at studying here but because my wife earns more than a particular (low) number, I cannot get any assistance - somehow that seemed wrong. If I divorced her, did my study and then remarried her I would get assistance...!





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  Reply # 1120316 2-Sep-2014 10:46
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This topic always enrages me:
Many of the suggested "solutions" aren't possible to discuss without invoking Godwin's.
I lament the loss of what used to be a generally accepted principle that creating an enviroment to foster equality of opportunity for our children was a good thing, and worth some cost.
Now all I seem to hear is whining about how the cost of supporting the poor is preventing the already advantaged from becoming even more advantaged.

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