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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120597 2-Sep-2014 17:09
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The bigger implications here are you have middle class and upper middle class people (ie people with careers and mortgages) NOT having kids, paying tax from their income to go and help people on low to no incomes to have lots of kids.

I've always thought imagine what we could do as a country (god forbid) if we actually supported the latter during that first year so they could 

a) keep their careers
b) keep their mortgage payments up
c) have kids raised in house that teaches importance of work and being productive

ie shift the welfare support a bit further up the line to people who on the face of it don't need it to get by themselves, but need it in order to have kids and maintain their status quo in life.


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  Reply # 1120598 2-Sep-2014 17:09
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hangon: 
for that particular case I'd rather see the 3 kids taken away and the government spent 100% on raising them.


I would rather see that same theoretical money spent on helping the natural parents become better parents  personally - excepting of course where parents are actually abusive or dangerously/wilfully negligent.


hangon: it may be extreme cases and it may have been over simplified. each time i see a kiwi kid suffer on TV, no reporter dares to speak out it's mostly the parents' fault.


What supporting evidence you have for that assertion? Do you know these people? Have a clear understanding of who they are and why their lives are where they are? 

hangon: show me the budget, breads $1 a loaf, milk $1 a litre.


Plus clothes and electricity and water and home repairs and petrol and car costs and medical costs and and and...




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  Reply # 1120614 2-Sep-2014 17:23
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I really wonder how many on here actually know genuinely poor people. I would hazard to guess not many going by the comments. Having spent time in Stokes Valley around people who are on the DPB, dole, poor choices who happen to have a child so are now unable to get any work + childcare. The vast majority of them are working their a..es off just to make ends meat with at least 2 jobs at minimum wage.

Yes there are hopeless parents who are just wasters. But it doesn't mean their kids should suffer and continue the cycle of poverty. If I were a betting man I would say the ratio would be 80/20 with the 20% being wasters.

Feel free to drive to the poor area of your town, knock on some doors and talk to them about how they are doing and the budgets they have to keep to.

Education (with a full stomach every morning so they are able to learn) for both the parent and child is the only way out of poverty. Until you have seen it you will have no idea and just sit behind your computer in your nice comfy warm office not knowing anything.

If only the right-wing posters here would approach tax dodging / avoidance companies (how much tax did Google, Amazon, Microsoft... pay??) as those are the groups who by far and above fleece the country far more so than any dodgy parent on the dole.  Wasn't the conservative figure something like 4 billion??





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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120617 2-Sep-2014 17:28
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Item:
hangon: 
for that particular case I'd rather see the 3 kids taken away and the government spent 100% on raising them.

I would rather see that same theoretical money spent on helping the natural parents become better parents  personally - excepting of course where parents are actually abusive or dangerously/wilfully negligent.

point taken

Item:
hangon: it may be extreme cases and it may have been over simplified. each time i see a kiwi kid suffer on TV, no reporter dares to speak out it's mostly the parents' fault.


What supporting evidence you have for that assertion? Do you know these people? Have a clear understanding of who they are and why their lives are where they are?
 
my assertion is based on the level of support they would be entitled - NZ is rather generous. and some of the ppl moves I see when driving pass TAB, liquor store etc. show me their budget if they can't afford feeding their kids, and explain why they keep on breeding. few reporters asking those questions.

Item:
hangon: show me the budget, breads $1 a loaf, milk $1 a litre.

Plus clothes and electricity and water and home repairs and petrol and car costs and medical costs and and and...

clothes are dirt cheap with Chinese imports, plenty at a $ each or a few, kids seeing doctor/dentist free and prescription capped at $100 a household a year, i doubt they ever pay for state housing repairs, car is not a must have - we already subsidized public transport haven't we? electricity and water goes up, so are the benefits.

in the end, show me the budget.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120619 2-Sep-2014 17:30
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BarTender: I really wonder how many on here actually know genuinely poor people. I would hazard to guess not many going by the comments. Having spent time in Stokes Valley around people who are on the DPB, dole, poor choices who happen to have a child so are now unable to get any work + childcare. The vast majority of them are working their a..es off just to make ends meat with at least 2 jobs at minimum wage.

Yes there are hopeless parents who are just wasters. But it doesn't mean their kids should suffer and continue the cycle of poverty. If I were a betting man I would say the ratio would be 80/20 with the 20% being wasters.

Feel free to drive to the poor area of your town, knock on some doors and talk to them about how they are doing and the budgets they have to keep to.

Education (with a full stomach every morning so they are able to learn) for both the parent and child is the only way out of poverty. Until you have seen it you will have no idea and just sit behind your computer in your nice comfy warm office not knowing anything.

If only the right-wing posters here would approach tax dodging / avoidance companies (how much tax did Google, Amazon, Microsoft... pay??) as those are the groups who by far and above fleece the country far more so than any dodgy parent on the dole.  Wasn't the conservative figure something like 4 billion??


Well I personally don't have experience living in those conditions, but I've seen (and partially experienced) 3rd world poor and family members of mine have experienced it.

 


Education only works if the people being educated want to be educated. There are plenty of people who would rather take the easy way out then bother to educate themselves.


As for the tax dodging / avoidance, that happens because of National (IMO anyway) and their desire to keep companies happy with their pockets full.




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Stefan Andres Charsley

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  Reply # 1120624 2-Sep-2014 17:39
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Item:
Geektastic: Taxes should be paid depending on the size of your family. A base tax per adult plus an additional tax per child to reflect the extra costs your choice places on society in the form of education, health etc.




Because that would magically grant those who are "poor" and have large numbers of kids the additional money to pay these new taxes?



Nope. But we could jail them for not paying their taxes which should hamper their breeding.…

More seriously, it would be fairer and make at least some people think twice.





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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120627 2-Sep-2014 17:42
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Geektastic:
Item:
Geektastic: Taxes should be paid depending on the size of your family. A base tax per adult plus an additional tax per child to reflect the extra costs your choice places on society in the form of education, health etc.




Because that would magically grant those who are "poor" and have large numbers of kids the additional money to pay these new taxes?



Nope. But we could jail them for not paying their taxes which should hamper their breeding.…

More seriously, it would be fairer and make at least some people think twice.


Looking at what is currently happening, I don't think that it would stop people pumping out kids when they can't afford it.




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Stefan Andres Charsley

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  Reply # 1120629 2-Sep-2014 17:43
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BarTender: I really wonder how many on here actually know genuinely poor people. I would hazard to guess not many going by the comments. Having spent time in Stokes Valley around people who are on the DPB, dole, poor choices who happen to have a child so are now unable to get any work + childcare. The vast majority of them are working their a..es off just to make ends meat with at least 2 jobs at minimum wage.

Yes there are hopeless parents who are just wasters. But it doesn't mean their kids should suffer and continue the cycle of poverty. If I were a betting man I would say the ratio would be 80/20 with the 20% being wasters.

Feel free to drive to the poor area of your town, knock on some doors and talk to them about how they are doing and the budgets they have to keep to.

Education (with a full stomach every morning so they are able to learn) for both the parent and child is the only way out of poverty. Until you have seen it you will have no idea and just sit behind your computer in your nice comfy warm office not knowing anything.

If only the right-wing posters here would approach tax dodging / avoidance companies (how much tax did Google, Amazon, Microsoft... pay??) as those are the groups who by far and above fleece the country far more so than any dodgy parent on the dole.  Wasn't the conservative figure something like 4 billion??


They did not fleece anyone. They operated within the law and appropriate regulation.





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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120654 2-Sep-2014 18:02
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Dingbatt:
MaxLV:
networkn:
MaxLV:
networkn:
 


NO I wont sell my 'assets' few that they are, but neither do I begrudge a significant portion of my tax dollar going to help those less well off than I am. Why? because I KNOW that most of the tax that you, me, and every other tax payer in NZ pay subsidises yours and  my lifestyle choices a damned site more than it does than those that are less well off than me. You're a bigger drain on the tax dollar than any beneficiary and their family will ever be! And you want to minimise the tax *YOU* pay?  


Please explain your claims?


They're not claims. Do you even have a clue how the Government spends your tax dollar?


Yes I do, hence the question for an explanation from you.


If you have to ask, then you dont (have a clue how your tax dollar is spent)

Hint look at the annual budget the government tables in parliament each May. And then tell me how YOU PERSONALLY dont benefit from that budget.


Social welfare 33%
Health 21%
Education 18%
Government services 7%
Law and order 5%
Defence 3%
The rest 13%.

(I resisted the temptation to shout in capitals.) I have yet to find any evidence in the various posts you quote where people claim they get nothing for their taxes.


That 33% welfare includes
Sickness benefits
Pensions


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  Reply # 1120659 2-Sep-2014 18:06
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BarTender: I really wonder how many on here actually know genuinely poor people. I would hazard to guess not many going by the comments. Having spent time in Stokes Valley around people who are on the DPB, dole, poor choices who happen to have a child so are now unable to get any work + childcare. The vast majority of them are working their a..es off just to make ends meat with at least 2 jobs at minimum wage.

Yes there are hopeless parents who are just wasters. But it doesn't mean their kids should suffer and continue the cycle of poverty. If I were a betting man I would say the ratio would be 80/20 with the 20% being wasters.

Feel free to drive to the poor area of your town, knock on some doors and talk to them about how they are doing and the budgets they have to keep to.

Education (with a full stomach every morning so they are able to learn) for both the parent and child is the only way out of poverty. Until you have seen it you will have no idea and just sit behind your computer in your nice comfy warm office not knowing anything.

If only the right-wing posters here would approach tax dodging / avoidance companies (how much tax did Google, Amazon, Microsoft... pay??) as those are the groups who by far and above fleece the country far more so than any dodgy parent on the dole.  Wasn't the conservative figure something like 4 billion??


Gee the view must be fantastic from such a high horse!
For your information I consider myself right of centre (conservative even (not the party)). I know a number of 'poor' families, in fact I come from pretty humble beginnings, but my parents never let us go without, even if they missed out themselves to ensure it. We assist a couple of families with less than ourselves. but we have learnt the hard way to provide clothes, toys and groceries, not cash.

The point I will agree with is it is a small bunch that spoil it for the majority that deserve some support.

This 'right wing poster' made the point only a couple of pages back about the fact that if everyone (including corporates) paid their fair share currently then there would be a much bigger tax pie to use. Please don't make such sweeping statements, when you have no more knowledge of other poster's circumstances than you accuse them of.




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  Reply # 1120707 2-Sep-2014 18:32
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Dingbatt:
BarTender: I really wonder how many on here actually know genuinely poor people. I would hazard to guess not many going by the comments. Having spent time in Stokes Valley around people who are on the DPB, dole, poor choices who happen to have a child so are now unable to get any work + childcare. The vast majority of them are working their a..es off just to make ends meat with at least 2 jobs at minimum wage.

Yes there are hopeless parents who are just wasters. But it doesn't mean their kids should suffer and continue the cycle of poverty. If I were a betting man I would say the ratio would be 80/20 with the 20% being wasters.

Feel free to drive to the poor area of your town, knock on some doors and talk to them about how they are doing and the budgets they have to keep to.

Education (with a full stomach every morning so they are able to learn) for both the parent and child is the only way out of poverty. Until you have seen it you will have no idea and just sit behind your computer in your nice comfy warm office not knowing anything.

If only the right-wing posters here would approach tax dodging / avoidance companies (how much tax did Google, Amazon, Microsoft... pay??) as those are the groups who by far and above fleece the country far more so than any dodgy parent on the dole.  Wasn't the conservative figure something like 4 billion??


Gee the view must be fantastic from such a high horse!
For your information I consider myself right of centre (conservative even (not the party)). I know a number of 'poor' families, in fact I come from pretty humble beginnings, but my parents never let us go without, even if they missed out themselves to ensure it. We assist a couple of families with less than ourselves. but we have learnt the hard way to provide clothes, toys and groceries, not cash.

The point I will agree with is it is a small bunch that spoil it for the majority that deserve some support.

This 'right wing poster' made the point only a couple of pages back about the fact that if everyone (including corporates) paid their fair share currently then there would be a much bigger tax pie to use. Please don't make such sweeping statements, when you have no more knowledge of other poster's circumstances than you accuse them of.


Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?





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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120708 2-Sep-2014 18:32
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Geektastic:
Item:
Geektastic: Taxes should be paid depending on the size of your family. A base tax per adult plus an additional tax per child to reflect the extra costs your choice places on society in the form of education, health etc.




Because that would magically grant those who are "poor" and have large numbers of kids the additional money to pay these new taxes?



Nope. But we could jail them for not paying their taxes which should hamper their breeding.…

More seriously, it would be fairer and make at least some people think twice.


WOW, how is it that you are not one of the poor being that stupid ?

1. Prison costs about $100,000 a year.
2. People don't choose to be made redundant, get injured, fall ill , so what to do with their kids...shoot them, sell them, put them into "Work houses".
3. Higher poverty = higher crime

NZ already has the 2nd highest prison population per 100,000 and you want to add to it.

Now it turns out that the latest economic research shows that large wage gaps (rich/poor) actually damage the economy.

"Fairer" turns out to be paying people a living wage.

Turns out that paying 1million people $1000 a year more stimulates the economy as they spend it on food etc etc. This in turn creates jobs which reduces unemployment. It also reduces crime, so we save money by paying fewer people on welfare and waste less money on police/courts/justice money.

Now with more people spending money, businesses will invest. Turns out the tax businesses pay has zero to do with investment. A business will invest in an area where they see an opportunity to make money, if they can't, even if they paid zero taxes, they won't invest.

Paying 1000 people $1million more does very little for the economy , they don't spend the money on things that creates lots of jobs. The "trickle down" theory has failed in every country that has tried it.

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  Reply # 1120727 2-Sep-2014 18:42
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Geektastic:

I don't even regard creating children as a good thing per se, personally, so their environment is a bit secondary...!

IMV they are a luxury not a right, as well as increasing the largest blight on the planet.


Rich or poor, with a birthrate beyond replacement we'll end up swimming in elephants

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120730 2-Sep-2014 18:49
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Geektastic:
BarTender: I really wonder how many on here actually know genuinely poor people. I would hazard to guess not many going by the comments. Having spent time in Stokes Valley around people who are on the DPB, dole, poor choices who happen to have a child so are now unable to get any work + childcare. The vast majority of them are working their a..es off just to make ends meat with at least 2 jobs at minimum wage.

Yes there are hopeless parents who are just wasters. But it doesn't mean their kids should suffer and continue the cycle of poverty. If I were a betting man I would say the ratio would be 80/20 with the 20% being wasters.

Feel free to drive to the poor area of your town, knock on some doors and talk to them about how they are doing and the budgets they have to keep to.

Education (with a full stomach every morning so they are able to learn) for both the parent and child is the only way out of poverty. Until you have seen it you will have no idea and just sit behind your computer in your nice comfy warm office not knowing anything.

If only the right-wing posters here would approach tax dodging / avoidance companies (how much tax did Google, Amazon, Microsoft... pay??) as those are the groups who by far and above fleece the country far more so than any dodgy parent on the dole.  Wasn't the conservative figure something like 4 billion??


They did not fleece anyone. They operated within the law and appropriate regulation.



They operate by spending millions of dollars on lobbyist to "shape" the laws and taxes for their benefit.

If overseas companies want to earn money here, they can pay taxes here.

A better idea would be if they want to earn money here and take it out of the country they should pay HIGHER taxes.

Turns out that it will not stop businesses coming here, they will go to where they can make money. If they had zero taxes and would make zero profit they will not invest, yet if they paid 40% takes and make money, they will still come, make money, and pay taxes. And it turns out that if they won't, someone else will.



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  Reply # 1120734 2-Sep-2014 18:52
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sir1963:
Dingbatt:
MaxLV:
networkn:
MaxLV:
networkn:
 


NO I wont sell my 'assets' few that they are, but neither do I begrudge a significant portion of my tax dollar going to help those less well off than I am. Why? because I KNOW that most of the tax that you, me, and every other tax payer in NZ pay subsidises yours and  my lifestyle choices a damned site more than it does than those that are less well off than me. You're a bigger drain on the tax dollar than any beneficiary and their family will ever be! And you want to minimise the tax *YOU* pay?  


Please explain your claims?


They're not claims. Do you even have a clue how the Government spends your tax dollar?


Yes I do, hence the question for an explanation from you.


If you have to ask, then you dont (have a clue how your tax dollar is spent)

Hint look at the annual budget the government tables in parliament each May. And then tell me how YOU PERSONALLY dont benefit from that budget.


Social welfare 33%
Health 21%
Education 18%
Government services 7%
Law and order 5%
Defence 3%
The rest 13%.

(I resisted the temptation to shout in capitals.) I have yet to find any evidence in the various posts you quote where people claim they get nothing for their taxes.


That 33% welfare includes
Sickness benefits
Pensions



So your claim I get more spent on me than a beneficiary does holds no water since: 

1) I am not a beneficiary
2) I have used next to no health services in recent memory, and what I did was covered by insurance etc. (It's a known fact that lower socio economic groups suffer worse health)
3) It's 22 Years since I started work, and in that time I have not received any government sponsored education (and my last qualification was tertiary which I covered the full cost of with a student loan and paid back with interest).

Happy to cop to the rest, since everyone uses those things. 

For the record, I was no in favour of tax cuts (and as someone on a higher income I stood to benefit from it), I would have been happy for them to leave tax alone and put the extra money into healthcare, and education.

I expect that my pension if there is one by the time I retire, will be donated to charity as I hope I am not relying on that to live. I hope they asset test pensions too. 

I am NOT anti social assistance for genuine cases of need. I am 100% behind personal responsibility, doing what you can to help yourself, and making good personal choices. I expect nothing from people that I am not prepared to do myself.

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