Warning: Rage Ahead - Campbell Live and childhood poverty

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#1120735 2-Sep-2014 18:53

Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?

I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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networkn

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#1120737 2-Sep-2014 18:54

Dingbatt:
Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?

I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?

Poor suckers paying PAYE? Say what notw You mean contributing members of society?

jonathan18

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#1120742 2-Sep-2014 19:09

Dingbatt: The fact that welfare makes up a third of the budget and that I do know what benefit (no pun intended) I get from my tax dollars was the main point.

"New Zealand Superannuation accounts for over half this spending and the costs of Superannuation are expected to grow by $600 million each year for the whole forecast period and beyond. Nearly half (45%) of all new spending will be to meet growth in Superannuation costs."

Source: http://www.cpag.org.nz/assets/Budget/130517%20CPAG%202013%20Budget%20Review%20final.pdf

... So, let's get real - over half the welfare budget goes on those over 65 - and much of this because politicians are too weak to do what needs to happen - both raising the age of entitlement to NZS and, most importantly, remove universal entitlement.

I have a relative who's sitting on a pretty penny or two, yet is so proud to be a welfare recipient - ie in receipt of NZ Superannuation. Yet she'd be one who'd be quite happy to bleat about others 'misusing' the social welfare system.

How fair is it that everyone - just because of age - is entitled to NZS, when so many clearly don't require it, and when we do have actual poverty in this country? (despite what many of you may claim...)

JimmyH

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#1120758 2-Sep-2014 19:13

NZCrusader:

The lefties can abuse or cry foul all they like at my statement, but at the end of the day I believe I should have the right to voice some input, as to where my tax dollars go.

You do. In fact you have several options.

The low effort option is to read the party manifestos and the mix of tax and spending proposals they put forward, then vote for the party with the package that best suits you.

Requiring more effort, as a member of the public you also have the right to make submissions on bills you don't like.

If that's not granular enough for you, then like every other citizen you have the right to stand for election. Convince enough people that you are right and you get into Parliament where you can vote on spending bills and go through them line by line in committee.

Prove competent and get into Cabinet and you have even more influence.

Dingbatt

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#1120761 2-Sep-2014 19:15

networkn:
Dingbatt:
Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?

I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?

Poor suckers paying PAYE? Say what notw You mean contributing members of society?

Yup. Me included. Nowhere to hide, I just wish others had nowhere to hide as well.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

JimmyH

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#1120766 2-Sep-2014 19:20

BarTender:

If only the right-wing posters here would approach tax dodging / avoidance companies (how much tax did Google, Amazon, Microsoft... pay??) as those are the groups who by far and above fleece the country far more so than any dodgy parent on the dole. Wasn't the conservative figure something like 4 billion??

I don't know about Microsoft or Google, but I thought Amazon as a whole was barely profitable - so it stands to reason that their tax bill was small.

I would be surprised if Microsoft and Google were dodging $4 billion of taxes in NZ, it just doesn't sound plausible. However, if they are not paying much tax then that still doesn't mean they are fleecing anyone if they are complying with the letter of the tax law and paying what they owe. If the tax law has avenues that let them inappropriately reduce tax then blame the politicians that enact the buggy law, not the companies who are merely complying with it.

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#1120794 2-Sep-2014 19:57

How fair is it that everyone - just because of age - is entitled to NZS, when so many clearly don't require it, and when we do have actual poverty in this country? (despite what many of you may claim...)

Well I feel it should be asset tested, however those who are wealthy enough to not require it, likely educated themselves, worked hard and made good decisions. Strictly speaking they should be MORE entitled to it than anyone due to having contributed more heavily to the tax pool.

Geektastic

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#1120853 2-Sep-2014 21:55

Dingbatt:
Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?

I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?

No one I hope - that is what Dignitas is for!!

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#1120855 2-Sep-2014 21:57

networkn:

How fair is it that everyone - just because of age - is entitled to NZS, when so many clearly don't require it, and when we do have actual poverty in this country? (despite what many of you may claim...)

Well I feel it should be asset tested, however those who are wealthy enough to not require it, likely educated themselves, worked hard and made good decisions. Strictly speaking they should be MORE entitled to it than anyone due to having contributed more heavily to the tax pool.

It does not matter whether they require it or not - they paid for it.

I have to pay to educate children I don't have (for example), so I'm bu****ed if I'd be happy to lose my pension too.

nathan

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#1120858 2-Sep-2014 21:59

Last time I checked at family planning 100 condoms were $5 so basically free. If you can't afford children don't have them.

Certainly don't have 11 of them while on the dole like the lady on the TV news the other night complaining that she has no money and the govt doesn't support her.

Geektastic

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#1120863 2-Sep-2014 22:13

Dingbatt:
networkn:
Dingbatt:
Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?

I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?

Poor suckers paying PAYE? Say what notw You mean contributing members of society?

Yup. Me included. Nowhere to hide, I just wish others had nowhere to hide as well.

I don't pay PAYE and neither does my wife.

If you think we have somewhere to hide, I will send you our Provisional Tax bill from the IRD - based on the assumption that we will increase our turnover by 5% and with 8.4% penalty interest if we underpay - and a mere 1.75% credit interest if we overpay...it's payable in a lump sum every few months. At the end of your first year in business, the IRD will demand terminal tax (the full amount of income tax for the year just ended, in a single lump) PLUS you will begin paying Provisional tax for the year just begun.

Note that you pay the IRD what they tell you you must pay - and if they get it wrong and you make too much money, and hence pay too little Provisional Tax, they will stiff you for 8.4% interest on the underpayment to reward your hard work and effort....

PAYE people have it easy, I can tell you. Running your own business most assuredly does NOT mean you are not a contributing member of society - in fact it means you do a lot of unpaid work for the IRD in addition to paying through the nose.

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#1120864 2-Sep-2014 22:15

Geektastic:
Dingbatt:
networkn:
Dingbatt:
Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?

I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?

Poor suckers paying PAYE? Say what notw You mean contributing members of society?

Yup. Me included. Nowhere to hide, I just wish others had nowhere to hide as well.

I don't pay PAYE and neither does my wife.

If you think we have somewhere to hide, I will send you our Provisional Tax bill from the IRD - based on the assumption that we will increase our turnover by 5% and with 8.4% penalty interest if we underpay - and a mere 1.75% credit interest if we overpay...it's payable in a lump sum every few months. At the end of your first year in business, the IRD will demand terminal tax (the full amount of income tax for the year just ended, in a single lump) PLUS you will begin paying Provisional tax for the year just begun.

PAYE people have it easy, I can tell you. Running your own business most assuredly does NOT mean you are not a contributing member of society - in fact it means you do a lot of unpaid work for the IRD in addition to paying through the nose.

HAHA ain't that the truth!

Geektastic

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#1120865 2-Sep-2014 22:17

nathan: Last time I checked at family planning 100 condoms were $5 so basically free. If you can't afford children don't have them.

Certainly don't have 11 of them while on the dole like the lady on the TV news the other night complaining that she has no money and the govt doesn't support her.

I'll certainly consent to my tax dollars funding sterilisation after 2 children...

driller2000

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#1120866 2-Sep-2014 22:21

the point of view that says "we don't have real poverty / go see the 3rd world" - really misses the KEY point imo

this point being we are talking about KIDS

kids who didn't choose their life

kids who go hungry / kids who lack for basic care / kids more likely to get poor education outcomes and feature in all the wrong kind of stats

KIDS who in my opinion deserve our support irrespective of the parents situation or decisions

its called empathy

and its morally right imo

why do so many posters seem to not care about this?

are you really that heartless?

as a more general comment:

i dunno about you but i am getting tired of the same few spouting the same theme ie. it's a left wing smear campaign / judith did nothing wrong / the poor deserve what they (don't) get / put em in jail / shoot the commies etc etc

and i think it's real sad for a forum board that until more recently managed to maintain some sense of respect for opposing views, without everything turning into an us and them thing...

why cant we all just get along? :)

righto!!

peace love and mung beans all :)

networkn

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#1120878 2-Sep-2014 22:39

driller2000: the point of view that says "we don't have real poverty / go see the 3rd world" - really misses the KEY point imo

this point being we are talking about KIDS

kids who didn't choose their life

kids who go hungry / kids who lack for basic care / kids more likely to get poor education outcomes and feature in all the wrong kind of stats

KIDS who in my opinion deserve our support irrespective of the parents situation or decisions

its called empathy

and its morally right imo

why do so many posters seem to not care about this?

are you really that heartless?

as a more general comment:

i dunno about you but i am getting tired of the same few spouting the same theme ie. it's a left wing smear campaign / judith did nothing wrong / the poor deserve what they (don't) get / put em in jail / shoot the commies etc etc

and i think it's real sad for a forum board that until more recently managed to maintain some sense of respect for opposing views, without everything turning into an us and them thing...

why cant we all just get along? :)

righto!!

peace love and mung beans all :)

Please quote posts where it's suggested that we leave kids starving, homeless, or alone? I haven't seen a single one.

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