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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120881 2-Sep-2014 22:49
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it's the attitude that sits behind comments that e.g. blame the parents / insist we dont have real poverty / suggest they shouldn't breed ....

and this is an attitude that almost NEVER explicitly says - "we need to look after the kids"









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  Reply # 1120882 2-Sep-2014 22:53
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driller2000: it's the attitude that sits behind comments that e.g. blame the parents / insist we dont have real poverty / suggest they shouldn't breed ....

and this is an attitude that almost NEVER explicitly says - "we need to look after the kids"










What rubbish! You are hearing what you want to hear, because it suits your agenda. READ the posts. Everyone says something like "Of course we don't want the kids to come to harm, but throwing money at the problem without changing the underlying issues, is a short term fix"

Everyone I have seen post who is pro a long term solution WANTS to HELP the KIDS!

Mad Scientist
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  Reply # 1120883 2-Sep-2014 22:59
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short of stopping breeding, there is no fix. since stopping breeding is not an option, then there is no fix.

ok there are options, but ultimately most people follow the example that's been set. maybe getting the all blacks to visit kids could have more impact than giving out free things. i don't think giving out free things is the answer, but i don't know what the answer is.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120885 2-Sep-2014 23:07
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i think you and i do indeed have a different lens and when i read the whole thread i didn't see what you seem to see

so lets agree to disagree on that


oh yeah - and re an agenda...

i didn't realise that a desire for society to help kids right now (and over the long term too) was an agenda...

so thanks - i'll take it as it sounds like a great agenda to me :)

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  Reply # 1120887 2-Sep-2014 23:09
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driller2000: i think you and i do indeed have a different lens and when i read the whole thread i didn't see what you seem to see

so lets agree to disagree on that


oh yeah - and re an agenda...

i didn't realise that a desire for society to help kids right now (and over the long term too) was an agenda...

so thanks - i'll take it as it sounds like a great agenda to me :)


I am curious to know where you meet adults who actively have an issue helping kids, I am not sure I have met more than 1-2 ever in my life?

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120888 2-Sep-2014 23:15
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you make a good point...in real life not many at all

on here - reading some posts - it feels like there would be a lot more - but maybe that's just the net for you eh?


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  Reply # 1120890 2-Sep-2014 23:20
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driller2000: you make a good point...in real life not many at all

on here - reading some posts - it feels like there would be a lot more - but maybe that's just the net for you eh?



It would surprise me if anyone here honestly wanted to do kids harm, or even allow them to come to harm through inaction. They are the people you meet on the street, just meeting in a different location.

I think you could give the benefit of the doubt without risking looking like a fool in my opinion.

Also don't mistake someone who says they don't want kids, or want to support other peoples kids as meaning they would be ok with kids coming to harm.

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  Reply # 1120891 2-Sep-2014 23:22
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Geektastic:
Dingbatt:
networkn:
Dingbatt:
Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?


I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?


Poor suckers paying PAYE? Say what notw You mean contributing members of society?


Yup. Me included. Nowhere to hide, I just wish others had nowhere to hide as well.


I don't pay PAYE and neither does my wife.

If you think we have somewhere to hide, I will send you our Provisional Tax bill from the IRD - based on the assumption that we will increase our turnover by 5% and with 8.4% penalty interest if we underpay - and a mere 1.75% credit interest if we overpay...it's payable in a lump sum every few months. At the end of your first year in business, the IRD will demand terminal tax (the full amount of income tax for the year just ended, in a single lump) PLUS you will begin paying Provisional tax for the year just begun.

Note that you pay the IRD what they tell you you must pay - and if they get it wrong and you make too much money, and hence pay too little Provisional Tax, they will stiff you for 8.4% interest on the underpayment to reward your hard work and effort....

PAYE people have it easy, I can tell you. Running your own business most assuredly does NOT mean you are not a contributing member of society - in fact it means you do a lot of unpaid work for the IRD in addition to paying through the nose.


But your chose to do that..... You seem to be all about making the 'right' choices that you can afford to make after all.



gzt

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  Reply # 1120893 2-Sep-2014 23:25
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networkn: Everyone I have seen post who is pro a long term solution WANTS to HELP the KIDS!

I'd have to disagree. Some of the 'long term' solutions proposed do nothing to help any particular hungry kid. Looking at some proposed here that may fall into the 'long term' category that may help a particular hungry kid are essentially dependent on the compliant actions of the parents. Ie; continued parent fail = do not help kid, continued parent fail = take kid away. That road is almost leading to put kids in the workhouse to teach them some whatever. There are very good reasons that institution was discontinued.

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  Reply # 1120894 2-Sep-2014 23:30
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MaxLV:
Geektastic:
Dingbatt:
networkn:
Dingbatt:
Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?


I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?


Poor suckers paying PAYE? Say what notw You mean contributing members of society?


Yup. Me included. Nowhere to hide, I just wish others had nowhere to hide as well.


I don't pay PAYE and neither does my wife.

If you think we have somewhere to hide, I will send you our Provisional Tax bill from the IRD - based on the assumption that we will increase our turnover by 5% and with 8.4% penalty interest if we underpay - and a mere 1.75% credit interest if we overpay...it's payable in a lump sum every few months. At the end of your first year in business, the IRD will demand terminal tax (the full amount of income tax for the year just ended, in a single lump) PLUS you will begin paying Provisional tax for the year just begun.

Note that you pay the IRD what they tell you you must pay - and if they get it wrong and you make too much money, and hence pay too little Provisional Tax, they will stiff you for 8.4% interest on the underpayment to reward your hard work and effort....

PAYE people have it easy, I can tell you. Running your own business most assuredly does NOT mean you are not a contributing member of society - in fact it means you do a lot of unpaid work for the IRD in addition to paying through the nose.


But your chose to do that..... You seem to be all about making the 'right' choices that you can afford to make after all.




You seem to believe that becoming financially comfortable is about luck. Funny thing about luck, the harder you work, the luckier you will get.



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  Reply # 1120915 3-Sep-2014 02:06
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networkn:
driller2000: it's the attitude that sits behind comments that e.g. blame the parents / insist we dont have real poverty / suggest they shouldn't breed ....

and this is an attitude that almost NEVER explicitly says - "we need to look after the kids"


What rubbish! You are hearing what you want to hear, because it suits your agenda. READ the posts. Everyone says something like "Of course we don't want the kids to come to harm, but throwing money at the problem without changing the underlying issues, is a short term fix"

Everyone I have seen post who is pro a long term solution WANTS to HELP the KIDS!


This is the one reason why I avoided replying to the thread - there are people who deliberately ignore what is being said in favour of the usual emotionally laden rhetoric which boils down to "they hate the poor". To help the kids there needs to be life skills classes, free contraception with comprehensive sex education, kids been given breakfast, lunch, dinner, taken care of after school, allocated school books, shoes, clothes etc. - so basically the only involvement is the parents putting a roof over the head. Effectively it will be the state (via the school, social workers and counsellors) itself raising the kids and educating the kids as to why they're in that situation, that it is no fault of their own and that it is the community stepping up to take care of them because their parents are too lazy to do so. Hopefully when the kids are given those skills and are given a good opportunity then it'll gradually break the cycle or at least stop the beginning of a cycle.




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  Reply # 1120943 3-Sep-2014 06:33
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I have held back in this thread but my (for want of a better word) disgust cannot be subdued further. I have spent over a quarter of a century at the front line of social issues in NZ be for a Government organisation or a private organisation. What I read here angers me considerably. The posts and statements here show that the vast majority have no idea of subject and would not recognise poverty, its causes, or have any real idea how to go about dealing with it.

With that and in the words of the TV Dragons I am out. Enjoy your fantasy.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120953 3-Sep-2014 07:51
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networkn:
sir1963:
Dingbatt:
MaxLV:
networkn:
MaxLV:
networkn:
 


NO I wont sell my 'assets' few that they are, but neither do I begrudge a significant portion of my tax dollar going to help those less well off than I am. Why? because I KNOW that most of the tax that you, me, and every other tax payer in NZ pay subsidises yours and  my lifestyle choices a damned site more than it does than those that are less well off than me. You're a bigger drain on the tax dollar than any beneficiary and their family will ever be! And you want to minimise the tax *YOU* pay?  


Please explain your claims?


They're not claims. Do you even have a clue how the Government spends your tax dollar?


Yes I do, hence the question for an explanation from you.


If you have to ask, then you dont (have a clue how your tax dollar is spent)

Hint look at the annual budget the government tables in parliament each May. And then tell me how YOU PERSONALLY dont benefit from that budget.


Social welfare 33%
Health 21%
Education 18%
Government services 7%
Law and order 5%
Defence 3%
The rest 13%.

(I resisted the temptation to shout in capitals.) I have yet to find any evidence in the various posts you quote where people claim they get nothing for their taxes.


That 33% welfare includes
Sickness benefits
Pensions



So your claim I get more spent on me than a beneficiary does holds no water since: 

1) I am not a beneficiary
2) I have used next to no health services in recent memory, and what I did was covered by insurance etc. (It's a known fact that lower socio economic groups suffer worse health)
3) It's 22 Years since I started work, and in that time I have not received any government sponsored education (and my last qualification was tertiary which I covered the full cost of with a student loan and paid back with interest).

Happy to cop to the rest, since everyone uses those things. 

For the record, I was no in favour of tax cuts (and as someone on a higher income I stood to benefit from it), I would have been happy for them to leave tax alone and put the extra money into healthcare, and education.

I expect that my pension if there is one by the time I retire, will be donated to charity as I hope I am not relying on that to live. I hope they asset test pensions too. 

I am NOT anti social assistance for genuine cases of need. I am 100% behind personal responsibility, doing what you can to help yourself, and making good personal choices. I expect nothing from people that I am not prepared to do myself.


I made no such claims about you. Please watch your quoting.

All I did was point out that Welfare included pensions and sickness beneficiaries.
Unless I am mistaken there is no way around getting older, and diseases like cancer, MS, epilepsy, etc etc etc are no respecters of age, race, religion or social status.

So, as a child you received no health care or education in NZ.
At university you were a full fee paying foreign student (domestic and german students pay about 20% of full fees)





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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120956 3-Sep-2014 08:03
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jonathan18:
Dingbatt: The fact that welfare makes up a third of the budget and that I do know what benefit (no pun intended) I get from my tax dollars was the main point.


"New Zealand Superannuation accounts for over half this spending and the costs of Superannuation are expected to grow by $600 million each year for the whole forecast period and beyond. Nearly half (45%) of all new spending will be to meet growth in Superannuation costs."

Source: http://www.cpag.org.nz/assets/Budget/130517%20CPAG%202013%20Budget%20Review%20final.pdf

... So, let's get real - over half the welfare budget goes on those over 65 - and much of this because politicians are too weak to do what needs to happen - both raising the age of entitlement to NZS and, most importantly, remove universal entitlement. 

I have a relative who's sitting on a pretty penny or two, yet is so proud to be a welfare recipient - ie in receipt of NZ Superannuation. Yet she'd be one who'd be quite happy to bleat about others 'misusing' the social welfare system.

How fair is it that everyone - just because of age - is entitled to NZS, when so many clearly don't require it, and when we do have actual poverty in this country? (despite what many of you may claim...) 


My Gandfather refused to collect his pension, he said he was earning more than enough to support himself and though that all the pension was was theft from his grand kids. (He would have been better off collecting it and giving to the grand kids )

Yes pensions should ONLY be paid to
- People over 65 and no longer working (like the Dole)
- People who have no other means of income (Like the Dole)

HOWEVER, I believe the pension should be payable to SOME people who retire at 55, people who have done hard manual labour and their bodies are shagged, people with age related illnesses that prevent them from working. 

I am also keen to see the reasoning behind keeping old people in work while keeping young people out of work. I seems to be a far better option to allow older people to retire early and have a job made available for someone younger. Better yet would be a "retirement plan" where the older person was kept around to teach and supervise the young person.



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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1120962 3-Sep-2014 08:13
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nathan: Raise taxes off all these rich pricks and redistribute it too these poor families who cant say no to having more offspring even though they are already not well off

So the people who made better decisions in life have to pay for others who havent ?

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