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  Reply # 1122437 5-Sep-2014 11:20
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tdgeek:
jonathan18:
Stan: Do those in retail have a moral obligation to not sell to those who can not afford it? Not in my opinion I would suggest the finance company has 100% of the burden here because you can not tell peoples financial position by taking to them.


By suggesting retailers and their employees don't need to take any moral responsibility in this area is a cop-out. There is well-documented (if annecdotal) evidence of salespeople crossing the line of what's morally acceptable - and this not only within but also beyond the discussion topic (ie, extends to inappropraite sales generally, not just warranties), eg the Dead Sea cosmetics sellers in malls.

.


How do you determine the customers financial capability?  Do they smoke cigarettes, dope, drink a lot? Or do they live frugally but sensibly and are able to take on a loan or payment arangment. I dont disagree with your core point, but on the other hand, it is potentially dictatorial, i.e. you cannot tell people what you decide they are allowed or not allowed to do.  


Yes, I agree that in many cases such an assessment is not possible or appropriate, but I'm talking about those outliers where shysters will clearly do basically anything to ensure a sale (and maximise that sale) despite all signs pointing to the inappropriateness of it.

It also comes back to an issue of the incentives on salespeople, whether it be commission generally or more specific issues with commission for "up-selling" things like extended warranties: this is always likely to result in an increase pressure on customers. And some salespeople will (unethically, in my mind) take advantage of those who clearly aren't in a sound position (both from a position of knowledge, confidence and finance) to push this.

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  Reply # 1122441 5-Sep-2014 11:29
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jonathan18:
tdgeek:
jonathan18:
Stan: Do those in retail have a moral obligation to not sell to those who can not afford it? Not in my opinion I would suggest the finance company has 100% of the burden here because you can not tell peoples financial position by taking to them.


By suggesting retailers and their employees don't need to take any moral responsibility in this area is a cop-out. There is well-documented (if annecdotal) evidence of salespeople crossing the line of what's morally acceptable - and this not only within but also beyond the discussion topic (ie, extends to inappropraite sales generally, not just warranties), eg the Dead Sea cosmetics sellers in malls.

.


How do you determine the customers financial capability?  Do they smoke cigarettes, dope, drink a lot? Or do they live frugally but sensibly and are able to take on a loan or payment arangment. I dont disagree with your core point, but on the other hand, it is potentially dictatorial, i.e. you cannot tell people what you decide they are allowed or not allowed to do.  


Yes, I agree that in many cases such an assessment is not possible or appropriate, but I'm talking about those outliers where shysters will clearly do basically anything to ensure a sale (and maximise that sale) despite all signs pointing to the inappropriateness of it.

It also comes back to an issue of the incentives on salespeople, whether it be commission generally or more specific issues with commission for "up-selling" things like extended warranties: this is always likely to result in an increase pressure on customers. And some salespeople will (unethically, in my mind) take advantage of those who clearly aren't in a sound position (both from a position of knowledge, confidence and finance) to push this.


Unfortunately shysters and users exist in all forms of society not just the retail sales scene. Incentives, thats difficult. Reward sales, thats a good idea, but again, there are always the bad apples that abuse, and in some cases no doubt the incentive scheme may promote excessiveness on the part of sales people. The sad thing is that genuinely helpful sales staff are a cheaper and probably way more effective sales tool.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1122500 5-Sep-2014 12:38
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jonathan18:
Stan: Do those in retail have a moral obligation to not sell to those who can not afford it? Not in my opinion I would suggest the finance company has 100% of the burden here because you can not tell peoples financial position by taking to them.


By suggesting retailers and their employees don't need to take any moral responsibility in this area is a cop-out. There is well-documented (if annecdotal) evidence of salespeople crossing the line of what's morally acceptable - and this not only within but also beyond the discussion topic (ie, extends to inappropraite sales generally, not just warranties), eg the Dead Sea cosmetics sellers in malls.

Stan: Some companies put enormous pressure there staff to sell extended warranties. I would suggest if you do not agree with it you shop at other retail outlets that do not, it should be fairly obvious what ones they are.


The only problem is that those most vulnerable to heavy-handed sales techniques are probably also those least aware of the state of play (CGA etc) and even that they're being taken for a ride, and also probably less likely to complain (or even know the avenues to do so). I'd make a guess that GZ participants are probably not the typical prey of such sales people.


People make a choice if they want to walk into a store and buy something by finance or by cash.
A similar argument could be used for casinos they are designed to keep you in there for as long as possible and make you spend as much as possible for a slim chance of taking home extra money, some people get addicted and ruin their lives over it is that the fault of the casino?

I am not saying that I agree with less moral retail sales that use high pressure sales tactics to sell someone something they neither want or need but if you want to deal to this kind of thing boycott the store tell them why you are boycotting them. Enough people do it things will change.
Look at Dick Smith its well known how they treat their staff and pressure them into selling extended warranties or else they have to support themselves on minimum wage what do you expect their sales staff to do? Yet people on here still buy from them. 

Vote with your feet its the better alternative.

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  Reply # 1122523 5-Sep-2014 13:19
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jonathan18:
bazzer: I don't agree that you have to be that "anal" about it. It just requires that you spend, on average, less than you earn (or budget) for the month. My CC can skyrocket some months, but other months will be quiet. All it takes is knowledge that my wife and I live within our means, even if that means we can be frivolous sometimes. Since we have a revolving credit mortgage we always know we can pay it off each month.

You talk about not buying anything that you can't pay for from "savings". But what savings do you have with a revolving credit mortgage? Presumably all your "savings" are in your mortgage ("earning" you the prevailing interest rate, tax free).


I guess the "anal" bit is partially related to income - the more well-off one is, the more feasible it is for there to be a gap between income and outgoings, and therefore the less anal one would need to be. I have worked this system when I was a student and our only income (for a family of four) came from my wife's 20 hours a week, and I find it most effective to carry on in the same manner even now we are financially ok.

Note the speech marks around "savings"! As mentioned, I run a complex spreadsheet - each fortnight a specifc amount is allocated across a bunch of virtual 'savings' accounts (columns in the spreadsheet). Any spend for puposes covered by these 'accounts' is deducted from the spreadsheet at the time, even though most of the spend is on the credit card. The actual money sits either in the revolving credit account negating interest on the actual mortgage, or, as currently, where savings fully cover the revolving credit balance the remainder is transferred to an external savings account earning interest. Essentially it's an off-set mortage without the cost attached - more work but at no cost.

(Edit for typos)


You must have the very same spreadsheet that I use! :-)

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  Reply # 1122525 5-Sep-2014 13:23
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Satch:
You must have the very same spreadsheet that I use! :-)


Oh no, it can't be - mine's copyrighted! Good to read of others equally OCDish in this matter...

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  Reply # 1122527 5-Sep-2014 13:26
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jonathan18: Satch:
You must have the very same spreadsheet that I use! :-)


Oh no, it can't be - mine's copyrighted! Good to read of others equally OCDish in this matter...


I do EXACTLY the same thing and have been doing so for years.  Over time my spreadsheet has evolved to the point where it estimates for a lot of the virtual accounts what my current balance should be, so I can work out if I have a surplus or deficit, and apportion funds to and from other virtual accounts to cover any holes there.

Once set up it takes me maybe 15 mins per week to keep updated.  I always know exactly where we are financially.

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  Reply # 1122544 5-Sep-2014 13:43
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Satch:
jonathan18: Satch:
You must have the very same spreadsheet that I use! :-)


Oh no, it can't be - mine's copyrighted! Good to read of others equally OCDish in this matter...


I do EXACTLY the same thing and have been doing so for years.  Over time my spreadsheet has evolved to the point where it estimates for a lot of the virtual accounts what my current balance should be, so I can work out if I have a surplus or deficit, and apportion funds to and from other virtual accounts to cover any holes there.

Once set up it takes me maybe 15 mins per week to keep updated.  I always know exactly where we are financially.


So, you get a bill in the mail. One that is fully accounted for on your spreadsheet. And you see its in credit, they gave a discount on your last prompt payment. What do you do? Yell out OH NO, they ruined everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Cheers!  

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  Reply # 1122549 5-Sep-2014 13:54
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Satch:
jonathan18: Satch:
You must have the very same spreadsheet that I use! :-)


Oh no, it can't be - mine's copyrighted! Good to read of others equally OCDish in this matter...


I do EXACTLY the same thing and have been doing so for years.  Over time my spreadsheet has evolved to the point where it estimates for a lot of the virtual accounts what my current balance should be, so I can work out if I have a surplus or deficit, and apportion funds to and from other virtual accounts to cover any holes there.

Once set up it takes me maybe 15 mins per week to keep updated.  I always know exactly where we are financially.


Sorry, re copyright comment: my tongue was firmly in my cheek!

Yeah, I similarly run a sheet which estimates spending in the various areas over the following 12 months (allowing various margins for increases in costs), thereby giving an accurate idea of what we need to be saving in each area.

My only concern running such a system is I'm not sure my wife would have a clue what to do if anything happened to me.

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  Reply # 1122554 5-Sep-2014 13:59
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tdgeek:
Satch:
jonathan18: Satch:
You must have the very same spreadsheet that I use! :-)


Oh no, it can't be - mine's copyrighted! Good to read of others equally OCDish in this matter...


I do EXACTLY the same thing and have been doing so for years.  Over time my spreadsheet has evolved to the point where it estimates for a lot of the virtual accounts what my current balance should be, so I can work out if I have a surplus or deficit, and apportion funds to and from other virtual accounts to cover any holes there.

Once set up it takes me maybe 15 mins per week to keep updated.  I always know exactly where we are financially.


So, you get a bill in the mail. One that is fully accounted for on your spreadsheet. And you see its in credit, they gave a discount on your last prompt payment. What do you do? Yell out OH NO, they ruined everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Cheers!  


Huh?  It tracks actuals against budget.  The actual amount hits the spreadsheet against the budgeted amount I estimated.  If it is over then I am in deficit (rarely on anything other than entertainment and incidentals).  If it is under my budget then I either roll the extra over to cover future higher than budgeted bills or I move the excess to savings or another account (column) in deficit.  Simples :-)

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  Reply # 1122555 5-Sep-2014 13:59
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jonathan18:  Sorry, re copyright comment: my tongue was firmly in my cheek!

Yeah, I similarly run a sheet which estimates spending in the various areas over the following 12 months (allowing various margins for increases in costs), thereby giving an accurate idea of what we need to be saving in each area.

My only concern running such a system is I'm not sure my wife would have a clue what to do if anything happened to me.


All good, I didn't take it in any other way.

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  Reply # 1122560 5-Sep-2014 14:02
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Satch:
tdgeek:
Satch:
jonathan18: Satch:
You must have the very same spreadsheet that I use! :-)


Oh no, it can't be - mine's copyrighted! Good to read of others equally OCDish in this matter...


I do EXACTLY the same thing and have been doing so for years.  Over time my spreadsheet has evolved to the point where it estimates for a lot of the virtual accounts what my current balance should be, so I can work out if I have a surplus or deficit, and apportion funds to and from other virtual accounts to cover any holes there.

Once set up it takes me maybe 15 mins per week to keep updated.  I always know exactly where we are financially.


So, you get a bill in the mail. One that is fully accounted for on your spreadsheet. And you see its in credit, they gave a discount on your last prompt payment. What do you do? Yell out OH NO, they ruined everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Cheers!  


Huh?  It tracks actuals against budget.  The actual amount hits the spreadsheet against the budgeted amount I estimated.  If it is over then I am in deficit (rarely on anything other than entertainment and incidentals).  If it is under my budget then I either roll the extra over to cover future higher than budgeted bills or I move the excess to savings or another account (column) in deficit.  Simples :-)


LOl I was joking!!  But thats ok, its funnier now that you gave a serious and lengthy answer. It must be Frideee!

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  Reply # 1122561 5-Sep-2014 14:05
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tdgeek: LOl I was joking!!  But thats ok, its funnier now that you gave a serious and lengthy answer. It must be Frideee!


Apologies.  It's sometimes hard to pick up tone.  Thought you might have been extracting the urine out of me.

My (and jonathan18's) solution isn't for everyone.  Requires a little discipline.  But reaps great results if you stick with it.  If only I could control my impulse spending....

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  Reply # 1122565 5-Sep-2014 14:16
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Satch:
tdgeek: LOl I was joking!!  But thats ok, its funnier now that you gave a serious and lengthy answer. It must be Frideee!


Apologies.  It's sometimes hard to pick up tone.  Thought you might have been extracting the urine out of me.

My (and jonathan18's) solution isn't for everyone.  Requires a little discipline.  But reaps great results if you stick with it.  If only I could control my impulse spending....


No, I wouldn't do that, was meant to be just a light hearted comment, no more. I'd thought about about a basic sheet. Just to A/P a fixed amount each fortnight for all known and expected bills, but never got round to it. Good idea though, and for yours, if you are going to be a little OCD, then the finances is a great place to be that way. 

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  Reply # 1122569 5-Sep-2014 14:20
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tdgeek:Good idea though, and for yours, if you are going to be a little OCD, then the finances is a great place to be that way. 


Yeah, well that I'm over my thing of a few years ago, which was ensuring the light switch closest to our bedroom was in the 'correct' position (which may have required walking down to the other end of the hall to change the other switch), may indicate that it's indeed providing an appropriate oulet!

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  Reply # 1122573 5-Sep-2014 14:24
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tdgeek:
Satch:
tdgeek: LOl I was joking!!  But thats ok, its funnier now that you gave a serious and lengthy answer. It must be Frideee!


Apologies.  It's sometimes hard to pick up tone.  Thought you might have been extracting the urine out of me.

My (and jonathan18's) solution isn't for everyone.  Requires a little discipline.  But reaps great results if you stick with it.  If only I could control my impulse spending....


No, I wouldn't do that, was meant to be just a light hearted comment, no more. I'd thought about about a basic sheet. Just to A/P a fixed amount each fortnight for all known and expected bills, but never got round to it. Good idea though, and for yours, if you are going to be a little OCD, then the finances is a great place to be that way. 


I would never be OCD.  I am CDO!

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