Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | ... | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | ... | 29
631 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 117


  Reply # 1130650 17-Sep-2014 13:18
One person supports this post
Send private message

If there are people living here in New Zealand who threaten my life or livelihood, then I endorse any Government which "spies" on them.

116 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 52


  Reply # 1130685 17-Sep-2014 13:50
5 people support this post

networkn:
testha:
Geektastic:

"Is the state allowed to usurp rights without consultation?"

To believe that the answer to this is no is to live in a fairy tale land - which many seem to do here, assumedly because genuine terrorist atrocities have never happened in NZ (ignore Rainbow Warrior, which many around the world applauded)

The state is the law. The state can - and will - do whatever it pleases regardless of statute if it deems it necessary. Why do you think, for example, the US has black budgets and black programs? In some instances it is for legitimate secrecy. In others it is because they are operating outside the law but consider that they need to do so.

If you believe otherwise, you do not know what 'power' actually means in the political sense.

Generally NZ has avoided such clandestine government activity and significant threat due to remote location etc. I sincerely doubt that will remain the case ad infinitum. The oddity is that the more attention and scrutiny you place the security services under, the more likely they are to act without the law because it becomes too hard to do it within the law.


There are no reasons to reduce peoples rights without consultation. None.

And I dont live in a fairy land. I just happen to enjoy the freedoms I have and rather not give them up for some secret reasons.

The least the government can do is ask the people if they would be willing to do so. I am not, I have seen the other side. Feel free to ask me how it was, I can tell you some nice stories what it means if a government has access to all the information about its people.

I said it before and will say it again, I would rather live with the very low risk of a potential terror attack if that means that democratic values will remain.







Easy to say when you haven't been exposed to one or lost family or friends in one. I think the 9/11 families feel somewhat differently.


It is easy to say that mass surveilance doesnt hurt if you have never been exposed to it. I have, the Stasi was real and made my family and friends suffer. Thousands of people died in East Germany from the government millions suffered in different ways. And I do feel different about it. Dont forget this was 25 years ago, with the digital revolution well on its way it is way easier now. Much less effort needed.

I mentioned before that 6000 people die each year of heart disease and Diabetes in NZ. Is preventing these deaths not worth the same effort? Arent these families suffering? You can watch http://tvnz.co.nz/nigel-latta/s1-ep6-video-6060553 for more info.

No matter where people die, it is always a sad affair. I just dont like to see this event being constantly used as an excuse to get a surveilance state going. If you keep interfering with other countries for your own gain and bully your way around the world you will just fuel the rage that spawns terrorism. Why not try some respect and be nice to each other?





 
 
 
 


Try Wrike: fast, easy, and efficient project collaboration software
631 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 117


  Reply # 1130688 17-Sep-2014 13:54
2 people support this post
Send private message
672 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 67


  Reply # 1130689 17-Sep-2014 13:55
Send private message

ajobbins: "Prime Minister John Key acknowledged today that NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden's claim that New Zealanders' data is accessible through the controversial XKeyscore system "may well be right"."

Source


Is that a surprise to anyone? It's used by the NSA who would have data from NZ, and by virtue of the 5 Eyes program it would be accessible by the GCSB either locally or via the NSA.

XKeyscore is essentially a search engine. On its own it is not proof of mass surveillance. 



371 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 166


  Reply # 1130709 17-Sep-2014 14:30
3 people support this post
Send private message

Ok, so we can agree the "Moment of Truth" has become the "Moment of fail" in terms of the explosive expose all but implied by KDC.

The argument is now "How dare my government spy on me under the guise of national security?" Actually, it's not your government, and you really can't be outraged about it. 99% of your internet traffic goes through America. America has openly and freely announced they screen all traffic that goes across their shores. So American already spies on you, and has done for years. 

What KDC and Snowden now want you to believe is while the America have a system in place, and have streamlined the process, the GCSB are also spying on you. Why would they if America already does?

I think this statement summarizes the absurd nature of his own argument:  
[Edward Snowden] “Ask yourself: why do analysts have a checkbox on a top secret system that hides the results of mass surveillance in New Zealand if there is no mass surveillance in New Zealand?” .


So this traffic that's captured absolutely cannot have been captured by ANYONE else other than GCSB? Seriously? We know the US loves to monitor everything that they have their fingers in, and this
means kiwi traffic as well, so it's 100% not possible this monitoring is actually being performed by America. It MUST be the GCSB. Yip, absolutely. No doubt in my mind. Yeah freaking right.

Look, I'll presume for a second everyone on this thread reads, and I'll presume they're not idiots, so you know America's monitor all their traffic. Is it really that much of a stretch to presume this NZ based information is ALL captured by the states? Why does it need to be the GSCB as everyone is implying?

John Key has admitted the GSCB can ACCESS this information, but until Snowden can prove otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, it's being captured by America, who already have the resources and have openly admitted to doing so!

Mad Scientist
18114 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2269

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1130731 17-Sep-2014 14:56
3 people support this post
Send private message

of course the govt spies. no one's ever denied that. denial of "Mass Surveillance" is what being discussed! gosh ;p

yes they are trained in XKEYSCORE, no one's ever denied that too. again, denial of Mass Surveillance is being discussed.

3 fellas say yes. NZ says no. NZ does not need to prove anything. the burden of proof lies on the 3 fellas. i'm still waiting.

234 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 64


  Reply # 1130737 17-Sep-2014 14:57
2 people support this post
Send private message

networkn:
testha:
Geektastic:

"Is the state allowed to usurp rights without consultation?"

To believe that the answer to this is no is to live in a fairy tale land - which many seem to do here, assumedly because genuine terrorist atrocities have never happened in NZ (ignore Rainbow Warrior, which many around the world applauded)

The state is the law. The state can - and will - do whatever it pleases regardless of statute if it deems it necessary. Why do you think, for example, the US has black budgets and black programs? In some instances it is for legitimate secrecy. In others it is because they are operating outside the law but consider that they need to do so.

If you believe otherwise, you do not know what 'power' actually means in the political sense.

Generally NZ has avoided such clandestine government activity and significant threat due to remote location etc. I sincerely doubt that will remain the case ad infinitum. The oddity is that the more attention and scrutiny you place the security services under, the more likely they are to act without the law because it becomes too hard to do it within the law.


There are no reasons to reduce peoples rights without consultation. None.

And I dont live in a fairy land. I just happen to enjoy the freedoms I have and rather not give them up for some secret reasons.

The least the government can do is ask the people if they would be willing to do so. I am not, I have seen the other side. Feel free to ask me how it was, I can tell you some nice stories what it means if a government has access to all the information about its people.

I said it before and will say it again, I would rather live with the very low risk of a potential terror attack if that means that democratic values will remain.







Easy to say when you haven't been exposed to one or lost family or friends in one. I think the 9/11 families feel somewhat differently.


We all know the US government did 9/11 and used it to gain access to the oil fields




I'm going to noob myself past judgement

1888 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 316


  Reply # 1130755 17-Sep-2014 15:15
One person supports this post
Send private message

Lyderies:

We all know the US government did 9/11 and used it to gain access to the oil fields







Sometimes what you don't get is a blessing in disguise!

1025 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 96

Trusted

  Reply # 1130770 17-Sep-2014 15:27
2 people support this post
Send private message

Lyderies: We all know the US government did 9/11 and used it to gain access to the oil fields


Super real troo news. I done seen a YouTube video.




My very metal Doctor Who theme

1245 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 137


  Reply # 1130778 17-Sep-2014 15:41
One person supports this post
Send private message

The thing that stuck me is how fuzzy and fluffy left wing politics can be. Lots of allegations but hard to back up with evidence - while they are serious and implications vast, all I have seen is heavily redacted presentation slides and a whole lot of chatter of how people and Government should/should not be behaving. That is not to detract or make less of the situation, but presently not possible to have an objective and rational conversation.

Mad Scientist
18114 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2269

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1130781 17-Sep-2014 15:43
Send private message

as you type JK has admitted the NSA could be spying on us, but it has nothing to do with the GCSB, and that there is no mass surveillance by NZ.

672 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 67


  Reply # 1130792 17-Sep-2014 16:11
One person supports this post
Send private message

joker97: as you type JK has admitted the NSA could be spying on us, but it has nothing to do with the GCSB, and that there is no mass surveillance by NZ.


I wouldn't say it's an admission as such, rather he's just stating the obvious. No doubt this will be spun 7 different ways by the press but hopefully it'll just continue to keep Winston out of the headlines for another couple of days. 


116 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 52


  Reply # 1130814 17-Sep-2014 16:30

 

 

Tonight, Glenn Greenwald versus the Prime Minister.

https://www.facebook.com/CampbellLiveNZ?hc_location=timeline


That's gonna be interesting.

 

 


8020 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 387

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1130843 17-Sep-2014 17:18
Send private message

JimmyC: 

Is that a surprise to anyone? It's used by the NSA who would have data from NZ, and by virtue of the 5 Eyes program it would be accessible by the GCSB either locally or via the NSA.

XKeyscore is essentially a search engine. On its own it is not proof of mass surveillance. 



Does NZ supply only lawfully intercepted data based on warrants to 5 eyes or does it just supply everything these days?

I'd wager supplying everything (fixed line, mobile and internet data) is part of the criteria of membership these days, hence the proposal for project speargun and implementation of cortex in the first place.

The the minister in charge of the SIS and GCSB's is supposed to deny everything and keep everything as secret as possible, so of course JK is lying... he'd be doing a bad job if he wasn't.

At the end of the day it's the same old problem there has always been with spy agencies.... who watches the watchmen?



672 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 67


  Reply # 1130893 17-Sep-2014 18:28
Send private message

Ragnor: 

Does NZ supply only lawfully intercepted data based on warrants to 5 eyes or does it just supply everything these days?



Good question. From a purely technical perspective, and fwiw, I do believe the argument that the GCSB does not have the capacity to capture the scale of information some are concerned about. However, I feel JK gets around the GCSB doing wholesale surveillance issue because I'm pretty sure the NSA will be capturing as much as possible anyway. From there, and if you believe JK, the GCSB will subsequently have access to that information on the basis of a valid warrant. 

Ragnor: 

At the end of the day it's the same old problem there has always been with spy agencies.... who watches the watchmen?



Agreed. The alternative is we get a politically neutral body set up, independent of any Govt of the day. But then who appoints them, who do they answer to, and who checks their checks? If the public know everything our intelligence agencies do, there is zero point in having such intelligence agencies. It might be nice to think that's the way it could\should work but it ain't going to happen. 

1 | ... | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | ... | 29
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Amazon launches the International Shopping Experience in the Amazon Shopping App
Posted 19-Apr-2018 08:38


Spark New Zealand and TVNZ to bring coverage of Rugby World Cup 2019
Posted 16-Apr-2018 06:55


How Google can seize Microsoft Office crown
Posted 14-Apr-2018 11:08


How back office transformation drives IRD efficiency
Posted 12-Apr-2018 21:15


iPod laws in a smartphone world: will we ever get copyright right?
Posted 12-Apr-2018 21:13


Lightbox service using big data and analytics to learn more about customers
Posted 9-Apr-2018 12:11


111 mobile caller location extended to iOS
Posted 6-Apr-2018 13:50


Huawei announces the HUAWEI P20 series
Posted 29-Mar-2018 11:41


Symantec Internet Security Threat Report shows increased endpoint technology risks
Posted 26-Mar-2018 18:29


Spark switches on long-range IoT network across New Zealand
Posted 26-Mar-2018 18:22


Stuff Pix enters streaming video market
Posted 21-Mar-2018 09:18


Windows no longer Microsoft’s main focus
Posted 13-Mar-2018 07:47


Why phone makers are obsessed with cameras
Posted 11-Mar-2018 12:25


New Zealand Adopts International Open Data Charter
Posted 3-Mar-2018 12:48


Shipments tumble as NZ phone upgrades slow
Posted 2-Mar-2018 11:48



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.