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Reply # 1129512 15-Sep-2014 22:42
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marmel:
Rappelle: Sure, DotCom paid for the event, and no solid evidence was provided, but are you really going to sit back and dismiss all the significant allegations that have been made by 3 of the most credible human rights persons in the world? I am genuinely disgusted by how the media has already reacted, and by the position people are taking against what has been presented simply due to the involvement of Kim Dotcom. If you are still voting for National without any doubt in your mind, then you are almost certainly being willfully ignorant toward what has contracted over the last few weeks.

The apathy and blindness of a large number of people (who get a say by voting) in NZ is simply abhorrent.


So Dotcom and others make claims and produce no evidence. John Key denies and produces documents backing this up.

Who is really being blind here?

I think most Nat supporters are reasonably level headed and would rather see some evidence before accepting claims made at a show produced by a convicted fraudster. If I was an Internet Mana supporter I would be feeling very disappointed right about now.



+1 and no way my vote will changing this coming weekend

186 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1129514 15-Sep-2014 22:48
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I'm amazed at how many of you downplay this. Forget everything to do with dotcom. Focus on the real issue at hand please.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/254650/whistleblower-backs-mass-surveillance-claims 

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1129515 15-Sep-2014 22:49
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So we are expected to believe two "pussies" who are in hiding and don't have the balls to front up to put their cases?

Yeah Right!!!!

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Reply # 1129517 15-Sep-2014 22:52
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code15: I'm amazed at how many of you downplay this. Forget everything to do with dotcom. Focus on the real issue at hand please.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/254650/whistleblower-backs-mass-surveillance-claims


I don't care if they see what I do online I have nothing to hide so have nothing to worry about

Awesome
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  Reply # 1129518 15-Sep-2014 22:52
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marmel: I think most Nat supporters are reasonably level headed and would rather see some evidence before accepting claims made at a show produced by a convicted fraudster. If I was an Internet Mana supporter I would be feeling very disappointed right about now.


The problem is that many are writing off what is being alleged immediately, and in many cases because they don't like Dotcom, or they think 'they would all do it anyway'.  I'm not convinced the opportunity has passed for more evidence to surface to support the claims, but that's not to say they also cannot be substantiated.

I would also point out that some of the 'evidence' presented by Snowden was his own experiences in his job, not necessarily something that can be documented. My personal opinion is that I would trust his word over John Keys as JK has a FAR greater vested interest in lying than Snowden does. That said, irrefutable evidence has not been presented either way, and I am certainly open to the possibility Snowden is wrong, it just seems less likely. Ultimately, we may never know for sure.

John Key's disclosures over the past two days also raise more questions than they answer, and I certainly think he has some explaining to do.

I think the jury is still out on this one




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  Reply # 1129519 15-Sep-2014 22:54
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Rappelle:
marmel:
Rappelle: Sure, DotCom paid for the event, and no solid evidence was provided, but are you really going to sit back and dismiss all the significant allegations that have been made by 3 of the most credible human rights persons in the world? I am genuinely disgusted by how the media has already reacted, and by the position people are taking against what has been presented simply due to the involvement of Kim Dotcom. If you are still voting for National without any doubt in your mind, then you are almost certainly being willfully ignorant toward what has contracted over the last few weeks.

The apathy and blindness of a large number of people (who get a say by voting) in NZ is simply abhorrent.


So Dotcom and others make claims and produce no evidence. John Key denies and produces documents backing this up.

Who is really being blind here?

I think most Nat supporters are reasonably level headed and would rather see some evidence before accepting claims made at a show produced by a convicted fraudster. If I was an Internet Mana supporter I would be feeling very disappointed right about now.



I wouldn't call declassifying a number of selected documents which don't show the whole picture for political gain producing evidence.
In no way do I support internet-mana, I think that dotcom and his ponies are fools, and should be completely irrelevant to this discussion. The point is, having Edward Snowden, Julian Assange and Glen Greenwald put their reputations on the line and then you dismiss what they have to say is definitely being blind.



Political gain? Are you being serious?

The last 5 weeks have been all about the left using stolen info for political gain. Selective emails developed into a book by Hagar for one.

I think you need to look at the big picture and see what Dotcom has been trying to do.

The news media are right to report it as they are, this was a complete failure and if anything only weakens Dotcoms position.

I think if these allegations are true about the mass surveillance Dotcom has only helped the GCSB by hosting this huge event and then coming up with nothing. It will make it a bit harder for someone to follow in his footsteps when the public have already written it off once as a load of bollocks.

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  Reply # 1129520 15-Sep-2014 22:54
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Does anyone believe that Snowden et al would release any evidence from their vast stolen pool of information that didn't directly support their assertions? Or even that they would bother drawing any attention to evidence that didn't support their own personal beliefs (crusades?)

I'm saying I don't think they are unbiased. And based on that, I don't believe they will have presented a balanced representation of the relevant information in their possession. I think they are likely to have focussed on the information that supports their beliefs, either deliberately or accidentally.

Cheers - N

533 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1129523 15-Sep-2014 22:57
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For me it's the fact that this was touted to be the master stroke, and all it was was a bunch of guys on a stage saying "trust me, I'm telling you this is what has happened" with no evidence of it.
It would be far more believable if they presented something new with actual evidence (I'm sorry but an email that looked like it was typed on notepad just doesn't cut it), but as it stands it's a case of "just believe what I'm telling you".

Politically it doesn't effect my vote in the least. Even if there was irrefutable evidence i still wouldn't vote labour/greens/internet mana because IMHO some members of that group have no place in government.
My personal opinion is that KDC has no place in politics in NZ, and I think the mana party has sealed their own fate by joining up with him, all for the sake of $$.

All this event has achieved is to have supporters of one side slander the other as being sheep or blind, and has done absolutely nothing to get john key out as dot com would have liked. It may as well have been someone on a stage reading out "hairy mclairy from donaldsons dairy" and trying to tell us it was a historical event that lead to the end of world hunger.


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  Reply # 1129525 15-Sep-2014 23:05
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I wasn't going to vote (General apathy and I don't on principle believe any politician - no not even the angelic John Key), but I am going to make an effort now, just to vote against the parties that supported this stunt.

Cheers - N


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1129528 15-Sep-2014 23:17
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Having read the declassified documents, they don't exactly back up John Keys statement that he personally intervened to stop the plan. Rather the opposite.

What I find interesting is that whilst the CEO of the Southern Cross Cable has assured that the SCC as not being spliced, there are other means to intercept the traffic that is transmitted along this and other submarine cables. The interceptions may not be occurring within New Zealand's international borders. If this is the case then John Key is correct in saying that mass surveillance is not occurring in New Zealand.

Edit: spelling.

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  Reply # 1129529 15-Sep-2014 23:23
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all i have learnt tonight is that  Spy Agency's spy. Im shocked.




Common sense is not as common as you think.


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1129531 15-Sep-2014 23:26
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johnr:
code15: I'm amazed at how many of you downplay this. Forget everything to do with dotcom. Focus on the real issue at hand please.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/254650/whistleblower-backs-mass-surveillance-claims


I don't care if they see what I do online I have nothing to hide so have nothing to worry about



I do have something to hide, I have a business and I communicate with my clients and we discuss ideas, business ideas, ideas that we don't want to end up in the hands of other people, especially competing companies.
Is that Ok ? Or should I shut my business down ?
I didn't know that dealing with another business meant I was doing something wrong. 
I'm staggered to hear that viewpoint from someone who works where you do, where there are thousands of businesses that pay your salary.


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  Reply # 1129532 15-Sep-2014 23:32
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turnin:
johnr:
code15: I'm amazed at how many of you downplay this. Forget everything to do with dotcom. Focus on the real issue at hand please.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/254650/whistleblower-backs-mass-surveillance-claims


I don't care if they see what I do online I have nothing to hide so have nothing to worry about



I do have something to hide, I have a business and I communicate with my clients and we discuss ideas, business ideas, ideas that we don't want to end up in the hands of other people, especially competing companies.
Is that Ok ? Or should I shut my business down ?
I didn't know that dealing with another business meant I was doing something wrong. 
I'm staggered to hear that viewpoint from someone who works where you do, where there are thousands of businesses that pay your salary.



If the government did have access to your information why are they going to share it with another company?

And the flip side of this is that if the government did have access to the information and became aware another country, China springs to mind, was stealing that information for their own use would you want something done about it?

I think a few people posting on this thread are sporting tin foil hats.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1129533 15-Sep-2014 23:32
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Really, geeks
You guys are going to swallow that the GCSB is a giant Norton anti virus ?
I think I know better than that.




Now on 2talk Network and it's better.



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  Reply # 1129534 15-Sep-2014 23:35
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techmeister: Really, geeks
You guys are going to swallow that the GCSB is a giant Norton anti virus ?
I think I know better than that.


I think it's pretty obvious Dotcom has already swallowed everything.

And on that note it's time for bed.

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