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Mad Scientist
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  #1134117 22-Sep-2014 21:47
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the gay marriage law came from the greens




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  #1134123 22-Sep-2014 21:59
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The Greens in various EU countries (notably Germany and Scandanavia) have had somewhat more success.

Were I in charge of the party here, I would be looking very closely to see why they do better.

Part of it is just a difference in attitude between Europeans and NZers but not all.

(For example, I once suggested to a farmer I know here that NZ should make more of the agriculture it has by becoming the world's first 100% organic nation and pointed out that the organic food market in the UK alone was worth NZ$2 billion a year, never mind the rest of the EU, USA etc. His response (I kid you not) was to dismiss organic farming as "something for people with beards and sandals"!)

I'm no tofu knitting, bike riding, save the whales type (no one will be surprised to hear) but I can spot a business opportunity for NZ to take more advantage of - and it would help clean up our waterways etc as well.





 
 
 
 


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  #1134182 22-Sep-2014 23:31

networkn:
gzt:
6FIEND:
sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.


This is a fundamental strategic decision for the Greens.  They essentially have two options available to them to ever have any chance at being relevant in government:

1) Obtain a strategic alliance with Labour and campaign cooperatively in 2017  (this was their preferred option this time and Labour denied them the opportunity, which Labour retrospectively say they regret.)
2) Stick to core environmental principles (grass roots), dial back the socialist rhetoric and campaign to be part of a 2017 National government.  (Minister for the Environment, Conservation Minister, etc, etc.)

Continuing with the status-quo will only see a continuation of their first 15yrs in Parliament.  (i.e. Never getting a Cabinet seat)  ...Labour will never treat with them because they have nowhere else to go, and Labour will need to woo more centrist groups like NZF and (or even Conservatives (at a stretch)) to form a 2017 govt. 

My impression was there was some kind of internal revolt in the Greens against the possibility of working with National again. This occurred not long after Harawira had spat the dummy with the Maori party. It seemed to be a trend at the time. That's my recollection.


Well it's all but the only way they will actually be able to achieve something in Parliament to be honest. Surely with National holding power alone, National can stop them doing anything, so they are better to try and get something than sit doing nothing for 3 years?



I agree. Besides, they can try and get through what they want under the National Government and then when the inevitable boredom sets in and the pendulum swings left again they can get their more extreme polices through. I don't see why progressive politics means "change everything NOW"!

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  #1134286 23-Sep-2014 08:48
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I agree. Besides, they can try and get through what they want under the National Government and then when the inevitable boredom sets in and the pendulum swings left again they can get their more extreme polices through. I don't see why progressive politics means "change everything NOW"!


I think JK is doing the right thing by apparently cutting the Greens off from government this term.  They were very derogatory towards National and JK personally throughout the last year or two, especially in the campaign.  I'd like to see National embrace some of the 'real' green issues - ie not socialism and alarmist climate change - and strengthen their appeal to those voters who want a balance between progress and environmental protection

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  #1134546 23-Sep-2014 13:23
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It was a private members bill from Louisa Wall (Labour).

joker97: the gay marriage law came from the greens




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  #1134553 23-Sep-2014 13:35
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The Greens refusal to work with the 'right' is what puts me off them. I like some of their environmental and social policies (not all) but would never consider voting for a 'environmental' party that rules out working with a party that they do not agree with financially/socially.

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  #1134556 23-Sep-2014 13:43
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trig42: The Greens refusal to work with the 'right' is what puts me off them. I like some of their environmental and social policies (not all) but would never consider voting for a 'environmental' party that rules out working with a party that they do not agree with financially/socially.


Indeed. Bob Jones made the same point in the Herald, saying that Green issues should be politically neutral.





 
 
 
 


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  #1134572 23-Sep-2014 14:06
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And what a festival it was... prophetic was the image on the national advert of people in red/green/purple anoraks rowing in different directions while the streamlined blue machine powered past in sync.

It's amusing to watch the left tear each other limb from limb, and assume if only the public were smarter they would get more votes - rather than accept their policies just didn't resonate with enough people - this time.

Labour: I thought mostly had sensible policies, good people on the ground.  Cunliffe seems to present the image he thinks he should present, rather than just be himself.  This seems false and doesn't inspire trust.  He was also a serial interrupter in debates, and sermon prone which alienates a good chunk of viewers.  Cunliffe is the unions' person, isnt6alled as leader contrary to the caucuses wishes.  He tanked labour's popularity by 1/3.  Big loss of face/power for the union movement within labour.  Watch the internal fighting, rivers of blood will flow.

Winston First: Was being Winston. He has a constituency, they vote for him.

Greens: Environmental policies are widely relevant but economic policy too left for 85% - 90% of voters and therefore poison to associate with.  Another fail, another three years in the wilderness.  Internationally successful green parties seem to have centrist economic policy and centre-left environment/social policy.  Might be a lesson there.  They looked like they had the best election night party though.

Conservatives: if they weren't perceived as religiously weird,  a little bit sexist, and a lot homophobic they might have got 5%.  The left would have been really stuffed then.  ACT + Conservative >5%.  Might be a lesson there.

Hone First: Is an activist at heart, attack is his primary tactic for gaining votes.  When the enemy is within (Kim and Laila) who do you attack? Fell off the political radar and into oblivion.

KDC: What you project you receive.  If you sow mistrust, and personal acrimony it comes back with interest.  The perfect common enemy to galvanise the right and scare the centre into voting for National.




Mike

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  #1134611 23-Sep-2014 15:01
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gzt:
networkn:
gzt:
6FIEND:
sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.


This is a fundamental strategic decision for the Greens.  They essentially have two options available to them to ever have any chance at being relevant in government:

1) Obtain a strategic alliance with Labour and campaign cooperatively in 2017  (this was their preferred option this time and Labour denied them the opportunity, which Labour retrospectively say they regret.)
2) Stick to core environmental principles (grass roots), dial back the socialist rhetoric and campaign to be part of a 2017 National government.  (Minister for the Environment, Conservation Minister, etc, etc.)

Continuing with the status-quo will only see a continuation of their first 15yrs in Parliament.  (i.e. Never getting a Cabinet seat)  ...Labour will never treat with them because they have nowhere else to go, and Labour will need to woo more centrist groups like NZF and (or even Conservatives (at a stretch)) to form a 2017 govt. 

My impression was there was some kind of internal revolt in the Greens against the possibility of working with National again. This occurred not long after Harawira had spat the dummy with the Maori party. It seemed to be a trend at the time. That's my recollection.


Well it's all but the only way they will actually be able to achieve something in Parliament to be honest. Surely with National holding power alone, National can stop them doing anything, so they are better to try and get something than sit doing nothing for 3 years?

Parliament has many formal processes where non-government ministers can and do make a contribution.

For example the select committee process where ministers and the general public can contribute to legislation. Mostly this improves the quality of legislation but from time to time it also adds content.

Similarly private members bills and opposition bills can have the effect of prefiguring government legislation to some extent.

joker97: the gay marriage law came from the greens

MikeAqua: It was a private members bill from Louisa Wall (Labour).

I read that Hague and Wall had members bills in the ballot at the same time. They agreed to work together on whichever was drawn first. It's a good example of making progress on issues. The prime minister expressed support for the measure and voted for it also.

Imho there is also an informal process that happens a lot in parliament where members are expressing quiet concerns to government members about influential opinions in their electorate on one thing or another. This can cause a government rethink and minor adjustments if a measure will unnecessarily alienate potential voters.

One level up on that, debating in the house can have a similar effect on actual implementation and exposes many issues to public scrutiny.

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  #1134621 23-Sep-2014 15:10
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can anyone help me i've never been able to figure this out.

So under MMP your % party vote = no of seats as a percentage

but if a party wins an electorate and only gets 0.2% of the vote then who loses a seat?

if a party wins 4.9% of party vote and doesn't get into parliament wheredo the seats go to?




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  #1134625 23-Sep-2014 15:16
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joker97: can anyone help me i've never been able to figure this out.

So under MMP your % party vote = no of seats as a percentage

but if a party wins an electorate and only gets 0.2% of the vote then who loses a seat?


An additional "overhang" seat is created.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_New_Zealand#MMP_in_New_Zealand



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  #1134626 23-Sep-2014 15:18
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i've read that page, AND the govt page, and still none the wiser :D




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  #1134630 23-Sep-2014 15:23
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joker97: i've read that page, AND the govt page, and still none the wiser :D


Well now you know :)  It actually happened this year too.  United Future has a seat (but would not qualify for a list seat) and so there are 121 seats instead of the base 120 seats.

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  #1134663 23-Sep-2014 15:59
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joker97: if a party wins 4.9% of party vote and doesn't get into parliament wheredo the seats go to?

I believe the 120 seats get allocated based on your percentage of the "useful" votes. So, I suppose, the 4.9% would get shared equally amongst the other parties in proportion to their party vote.

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  #1134674 23-Sep-2014 16:11
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bazzer:
joker97: if a party wins 4.9% of party vote and doesn't get into parliament wheredo the seats go to?

I believe the 120 seats get allocated based on your percentage of the "useful" votes. So, I suppose, the 4.9% would get shared equally amongst the other parties in proportion to their party vote.


Yep, those votes are "lost" - as if they were never cast.  Then the proportion is worked out from the remaining votes.

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