Why do people keep thinking National are doing a great job?

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#1149531 7-Oct-2014 21:38

Hammerer:
sxz: ...

If it was me and my bank they would have foreclosed me a long time ago for behaving the same way!

That statement sounds like it should make more sense than it does. Personal accounts are not much like national accounts.

That's right. If the government went bankrupt, we all go bankrupt - as we are the guarantor of the borrowed money.

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#1149553 7-Oct-2014 22:14

kiwirock: Just to quickly add to that: Waiting on the floor for 40 minuts at A&E on Sunday with a friend who was suffering extreme pain from inflammed gall bladder who should have had it out instead of passing out from the extreme pain is causes, is a great sign of why I didn't vote National.

People are so obessed with the dollar that the dollar always comes first. People will be allowed to die before coming up with a new monetary system or don't stop the runaway monetisation of every aspect of life.

My 50c worth, adjusted after inflation.

It's also worth noting that if the gall bladder was that inflamed (I've had that, and it really hurts!) they actually can't take it out there and then unless it's life or death. It's too risky. Plus, they often don't want to operate on the first occurrence, in case it's a one-off for which a course of antibiotics is sufficient and the that surgery is unnecessary. If they do operate, standard procedure is to calm it down with lots of antibiotics, and only take it out after a few weeks once the antibiotics have settled it down. Nothing to do with funding, that's about what's best for the patient.

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#1149573 7-Oct-2014 22:32

sxz: I am no politics expert, nor am I an economist. In fact, I'm not even that intelligent :).

But it annoys me every time I see Bill English saying that their annual budget will be back in surplus soon. What this means to me is that every year we are spending a lot more than the government makes, and that they planned to do it this way.

Wikipedia shows here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/New_Zealand_overseas_debt_1993-2010.svg/578px-New_Zealand_overseas_debt_1993-2010.svg.png that NZ Government debt has nearly doubled from 25 odd billion to 50 odd billion since 2007. Every year they borrow a lot more than they make.

Surely it's best practice to take a loan when needed, sure, then pay it off ASAP so you are not stuck paying interest. If the government doesn't make enough money, then they need to raise taxes.

NZ already has some of the lowest taxes in the OECD. See here: http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages.htm. Fascinating site.

Why does everyone go on about John Key being a business man and knowing whats best? Surely the best way to make money is to work hard & pay off debt - not live day to day on your credit card?

Now I'm not saying Labour (or anyone) is the answer. Labour sat with government debt at 20billion for about 10 years then. Why cant we work hard, raise taxes, pay off all the debt, then we can be the rich country who lends money to America and makes money off the interest by doing exactly nothing.

/Rant over.

Well, we could cut benefits to zero, wind up the heath service and make all schools fee paying and I am sure we'll be back in surplus by Thursday next.

Not sure all the liberal hand-wringers would like it too much - they'll start bleating about 'ooman rights' and so on.

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#1149578 7-Oct-2014 23:10

sxz: I am no politics expert, nor am I an economist. In fact, I'm not even that intelligent :).

But it annoys me every time I see Bill English saying that their annual budget will be back in surplus soon. What this means to me is that every year we are spending a lot more than the government makes, and that they planned to do it this way.

Wikipedia shows here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/New_Zealand_overseas_debt_1993-2010.svg/578px-New_Zealand_overseas_debt_1993-2010.svg.png that NZ Government debt has nearly doubled from 25 odd billion to 50 odd billion since 2007. Every year they borrow a lot more than they make.

Surely it's best practice to take a loan when needed, sure, then pay it off ASAP so you are not stuck paying interest. If the government doesn't make enough money, then they need to raise taxes.

NZ already has some of the lowest taxes in the OECD. See here: http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages.htm. Fascinating site.

Why does everyone go on about John Key being a business man and knowing whats best? Surely the best way to make money is to work hard & pay off debt - not live day to day on your credit card?

Now I'm not saying Labour (or anyone) is the answer. Labour sat with government debt at 20billion for about 10 years then. Why cant we work hard, raise taxes, pay off all the debt, then we can be the rich country who lends money to America and makes money off the interest by doing exactly nothing.

/Rant over.

Because we live in a 'capitalist society' where being in debt is the 'norm' from the individual, businesses (small to global corporates), to governments that run 'free' countries such as New Zealand. Try living without debt (having a debt record) then try to get credit....

I live debt free, (took most of my adult to get to be debt free) Only have living expenses, but I keep getting the personal loan offers from various finance companies and banks, mortgage offers from banks, Credit card offers, etc but because I dont have a current 'good debt record' they only offer minimal credit to me. I've got to have current debts to get more debt.

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#1149591 7-Oct-2014 23:39

sxz: I am no politics expert, nor am I an economist. In fact, I'm not even that intelligent :).

But it annoys me every time I see Bill English saying that their annual budget will be back in surplus soon. What this means to me is that every year we are spending a lot more than the government makes, and that they planned to do it this way.

that's a political spin to let average joe it's all ok, but in effect the govt doesn't really know (unless they have a crystal ball)

Wikipedia shows here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/New_Zealand_overseas_debt_1993-2010.svg/578px-New_Zealand_overseas_debt_1993-2010.svg.png that NZ Government debt has nearly doubled from 25 odd billion to 50 odd billion since 2007. Every year they borrow a lot more than they make.

they have no choice. we are a small country dependant on exports. and lots of natural disasters - the chch quakes has cost us at least $10 billion bucks.
- we export volatile stuff - wool and dairy prices are up and down
- in Australia you can dig a hole in the ground and money will come out of it. not here.
- some chinese lady wanted to spend 100s of million building a hotel in Dunedin and what did Dunedin say? "take your filthy money back to china we don't want it"

Surely it's best practice to take a loan when needed, sure, then pay it off ASAP so you are not stuck paying interest. If the government doesn't make enough money, then they need to raise taxes.

NZ already has some of the lowest taxes in the OECD. See here: http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages.htm. Fascinating site.

you want to pay more taxes? sure ask all your hardworking friends if they want to pay more taxes.
you want businesses to pay more taxes? sure - be prepared for all your iphones and milk to go up in price. or maybe they might stop hiring people.

Why does everyone go on about John Key being a business man and knowing whats best? Surely the best way to make money is to work hard & pay off debt - not live day to day on your credit card?

Now I'm not saying Labour (or anyone) is the answer. Labour sat with government debt at 20billion for about 10 years then. Why cant we work hard, raise taxes, pay off all the debt, then we can be the rich country who lends money to America and makes money off the interest by doing exactly nothing.

umm ... by not borrowing it will dampen down the economy such that businesses won't flourish they will increase their prices the will hire less people, telecom and vodafone will move all their call centres overseas, etc - there needs to be a correct balance.

/Rant over.

i would like to scrutinise their spending however - what nonsense are they paying - like a million here for consultants, 10 million there to say go ahead and sell might river power etc ...

i want to be a consultant! that's where the money is under National. but I don't want RN, WP or DC running our country. No way.

k1wi

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#1149634 8-Oct-2014 02:55

kiwirock: Just to quickly add to that: Waiting on the floor for 40 minuts at A&E on Sunday with a friend who was suffering extreme pain from inflammed gall bladder who should have had it out instead of passing out from the extreme pain is causes, is a great sign of why I didn't vote National.

People are so obessed with the dollar that the dollar always comes first. People will be allowed to die before coming up with a new monetary system or don't stop the runaway monetisation of every aspect of life.

My 50c worth, adjusted after inflation.

From kiwiblog:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/09/issues_that_matter_-_health.html

kiwirock

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#1149635 8-Oct-2014 04:34

JimmyH:
It's also worth noting that if the gall bladder was that inflamed (I've had that, and it really hurts!) they actually can't take it out there and then unless it's life or death. It's too risky. Plus, they often don't want to operate on the first occurrence, in case it's a one-off for which a course of antibiotics is sufficient and the that surgery is unnecessary. If they do operate, standard procedure is to calm it down with lots of antibiotics, and only take it out after a few weeks once the antibiotics have settled it down. Nothing to do with funding, that's about what's best for the patient.

This was the third time in a few years the first two times she passed out. They sent her home with low blood pressure on Sunday and today it was 97/70 and follows a strict diet since her first attacks. But she now has a 'referal' for surgery. I didn't see anyone that had to sit on the floor incase they passed out curled up in pain, not saying anyone else wasn't. They had the surgeons coming down after an hour or so but in fariness they had a late emergency that tumpt it, and that's fine. If they were ready to talk surgery though then can't, that's resources. It's also costing days off work for her, and for me to look after the daughter and I'm a reasonbly busy casual so if I don't work I don't get paid.

In today's fragile economy, it only takes a few good knocks to be passed stretched. Austerity doesn't look that pretty to me this week.

I still don't get it though. The world has enough resources to make life quite reasonble. But it's all monetised. Yes it has to be so we don't have lazy folks. If the world was full of volunteers I wonder how that would work. I'm guessing plenty of resources to go around.

That's why I think a few good market crashes would be a good thing. It's getting close to time for some new ideas but please excuse me for this blatant over the ditch phrase, it's beating off a dead horse - cyclical economic measures that haven't worked in the past and so far have not convinced me it's suitable for the future or overall well being of people. When things get to good, they throw the brakes on. Then go blambing unemployed. Last time I checked, unemployed people was part of the money game. The less employee's you have the less it costs the business. On which side of the spectrum does National stand up for when push comes to shove?

Companies get a bail out, but NZ'ers get the kick up the rear while asked to pay for those bailouts!

Geektastic

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#1149724 8-Oct-2014 10:05

kiwirock:
JimmyH:
It's also worth noting that if the gall bladder was that inflamed (I've had that, and it really hurts!) they actually can't take it out there and then unless it's life or death. It's too risky. Plus, they often don't want to operate on the first occurrence, in case it's a one-off for which a course of antibiotics is sufficient and the that surgery is unnecessary. If they do operate, standard procedure is to calm it down with lots of antibiotics, and only take it out after a few weeks once the antibiotics have settled it down. Nothing to do with funding, that's about what's best for the patient.

This was the third time in a few years the first two times she passed out. They sent her home with low blood pressure on Sunday and today it was 97/70 and follows a strict diet since her first attacks. But she now has a 'referal' for surgery. I didn't see anyone that had to sit on the floor incase they passed out curled up in pain, not saying anyone else wasn't. They had the surgeons coming down after an hour or so but in fariness they had a late emergency that tumpt it, and that's fine. If they were ready to talk surgery though then can't, that's resources. It's also costing days off work for her, and for me to look after the daughter and I'm a reasonbly busy casual so if I don't work I don't get paid.

In today's fragile economy, it only takes a few good knocks to be passed stretched. Austerity doesn't look that pretty to me this week.

I still don't get it though. The world has enough resources to make life quite reasonble. But it's all monetised. Yes it has to be so we don't have lazy folks. If the world was full of volunteers I wonder how that would work. I'm guessing plenty of resources to go around.

That's why I think a few good market crashes would be a good thing. It's getting close to time for some new ideas but please excuse me for this blatant over the ditch phrase, it's beating off a dead horse - cyclical economic measures that haven't worked in the past and so far have not convinced me it's suitable for the future or overall well being of people. When things get to good, they throw the brakes on. Then go blambing unemployed. Last time I checked, unemployed people was part of the money game. The less employee's you have the less it costs the business. On which side of the spectrum does National stand up for when push comes to shove?

Companies get a bail out, but NZ'ers get the kick up the rear while asked to pay for those bailouts!

Speak for yourself.

We have had no kicks up the rear and our household income has increased over 100% in the last 5 years.

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#1149738 8-Oct-2014 10:26

JimmyH:
kiwirock: Just to quickly add to that: Waiting on the floor for 40 minuts at A&E on Sunday with a friend who was suffering extreme pain from inflammed gall bladder who should have had it out instead of passing out from the extreme pain is causes, is a great sign of why I didn't vote National.

People are so obessed with the dollar that the dollar always comes first. People will be allowed to die before coming up with a new monetary system or don't stop the runaway monetisation of every aspect of life.

My 50c worth, adjusted after inflation.

It's also worth noting that if the gall bladder was that inflamed (I've had that, and it really hurts!) they actually can't take it out there and then unless it's life or death. It's too risky. Plus, they often don't want to operate on the first occurrence, in case it's a one-off for which a course of antibiotics is sufficient and the that surgery is unnecessary. If they do operate, standard procedure is to calm it down with lots of antibiotics, and only take it out after a few weeks once the antibiotics have settled it down. Nothing to do with funding, that's about what's best for the patient.

i'm no surgeon, but i believe you are talking about 10 years ago. the current thinking have moved on from that "convervative" approach

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#1149741 8-Oct-2014 10:27

joker97:
JimmyH:
kiwirock: Just to quickly add to that: Waiting on the floor for 40 minuts at A&E on Sunday with a friend who was suffering extreme pain from inflammed gall bladder who should have had it out instead of passing out from the extreme pain is causes, is a great sign of why I didn't vote National.

People are so obessed with the dollar that the dollar always comes first. People will be allowed to die before coming up with a new monetary system or don't stop the runaway monetisation of every aspect of life.

My 50c worth, adjusted after inflation.

It's also worth noting that if the gall bladder was that inflamed (I've had that, and it really hurts!) they actually can't take it out there and then unless it's life or death. It's too risky. Plus, they often don't want to operate on the first occurrence, in case it's a one-off for which a course of antibiotics is sufficient and the that surgery is unnecessary. If they do operate, standard procedure is to calm it down with lots of antibiotics, and only take it out after a few weeks once the antibiotics have settled it down. Nothing to do with funding, that's about what's best for the patient.

i'm no surgeon, but i believe you are talking about 10 years ago. the current thinking have moved on from that "convervative" approach

if you think politicians talk rubbish, doctors are worse. everyone has a different opinion, and the "best practice" changes by the year ...

heylinb4nz

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#1149762 8-Oct-2014 11:00

The problem is far bigger than country level (ie NZ), the daily struggle to cover life's expense is a direct result of how central world banks operate combined with extreme capitalism of major corporates.

Successive NZ government's has been selling off our sovereignty \ control of our country to the world banks in exchange for their dirty printed currency \ loans, while large corporates pool 100s of millions to billions of $$$ annually !!!.

Dont even get me started on the combined wealth of world banks and families like the Rothschilds and Rockerfellas who hold trillions in wealth and hard assets (property and precious metals)

I dont begrudge a company the right to earn a living, even to have a surplus for growth, but there is a line and its been well and truely crossed.

There is no reason that everyone in the world cant have a decent standard of living.

Will it change ? mabey, but the world is going to have to goto hell and back first.

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#1149766 8-Oct-2014 11:07

heylinb4nz: The problem is far bigger than country level (ie NZ), the daily struggle to cover life's expense is a direct result of how central world banks operate combined with extreme capitalism of major corporates.

Successive NZ government's has been selling off our sovereignty \ control of our country to the world banks in exchange for their dirty printed currency \ loans, while large corporates pool 100s of millions to billions of $$$ annually !!!.

Dont even get me started on the combined wealth of world banks and families like the Rothschilds and Rockerfellas who hold trillions in wealth and hard assets (property and precious metals) I dont begrudge a company the right to earn a living, even to have a surplus for growth, but there is a line and its been well and truely crossed.

There is no reason that everyone in the world cant have a decent standard of living. Will it change ? mabey, but the world is going to have to goto hell and back first.

It won't change. It has been that way since the year dot.

How wealthy do you think, say, Julius Caesar was in relation to most Romans? Or Richard The Lionheart? Or King Alfred? Or Harald Bluetooth? Or Herod The Great? Or Ramses II? Or Henry Ford? and so on ad infinitum.

The most simple statement of the problem is that there are increasingly too many people in the world chasing a share of too little and expecting too much.

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#1149773 8-Oct-2014 11:24

Geektastic:

.....The most simple statement of the problem is that there are increasingly too many people in the world chasing a share of too little and expecting too much.

Well said. Human nature I guess.

So in a survival sense the only real solution is to make sure you are on the right side of the poverty line and can keep up...and when the whole things collapses (recession, global collapse) that you have the means to survive until it all starts over.

MikeAqua

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#1149789 8-Oct-2014 11:30

I think national are doing a good job, because from my perspective they are. We have been through some tough times and the ship has stayed afloat. Lots of oth4r countries have hit rock bottom and are continuing to dig. Yes, we have borrowed. The alternatives would have been to cut government expenditure to the bone or massively increase taxes - both of these could have driven the economy into a deep recession.

My direct experience is that, our 4 kids are being educated well by the state, an unwell parent is receiving excellent and timely health care from the state and their condition is improving. The roads are getting better. Quality housing is affordable outside of Auckland, Christchurch and Queenstown.

The problems that have persisted under all governments are still there - stretched health system, child poverty, arguments about education reform, house prices in Auckland. The government will produce figures to say they are getting better. The opposition and NGOs will produce figures to show they are getting worse, and lay blame at the feet of the government.

My read is all governments in my lifetime have been ineffective at solving these chronic problems, but labour taxes and spends more to not solve them.

Mike

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#1149804 8-Oct-2014 11:35

NZ is on a different planet. Live in urban Australia or any urban Asian country and this is like a retirement village.

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