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  #1153016 13-Oct-2014 16:59
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heylinb4nz:
DarthKermit: If enough people think the government (which currently happens to be the National Party) are doing a crappy job, they'll be voted out and replaced by an alternative government, who in theory will do a great job. And so on and so on...


All good and well until you realise that it doesn't matter who you vote for. You cannot expect to borrow billions without letting go some control of your country to the people who lent you the money.  Essentially NZ has sold its sovereignty to the international money lenders, and it is in their best interest for us to do well enough to pay interest on loans (and allow them influence over NZs fiscal policies), but not so well that we can fully pay and become independent of them.  


I'm under no illusion that that isn't the case. This reminds me of a quote from a movie I have on DVD called 'The International':
[In explaining the "true" nature of banking in the world] The IBBC is a bank. Their objective isn't to control the conflict, it's to control the debt that the conflict produces. You see, the real value of a conflict, the true value, is in the debt that it creates. You control the debt, you control everything. You find this upsetting, yes? But this is the very essence of the banking industry, to make us all, whether we be nations or individuals, slaves to debt.




Whatifthespacekeyhadneverbeeninvented?


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  #1153066 13-Oct-2014 18:50
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heylinb4nz:
joker97: To whom do we owe money?

Which countries are free of any debt?


World Bank & IMF come to mind. No countries are debt free which is quite scary when you consider the level of debt (and thus control) that a small group of money lending organisations have over world governments.

 

Common theme seems to be that the countries without international banks are the ones we are bombing and trying to install democracy into.

 

 



 

 

As far as I am aware the Government hasn't borrowed from either the World Bank or the IMF - and countries usually only do this when they are in distress (or very poor with a development project they can't fund). Nor has it significantly borrowed directly from international banks. Borrowings are largely from selling NZ Government bonds and T-bills into the money market, where they are purchased by whoever offers the highest price (=lowest interest rate) at auction.

 

 



 

 

There is no shadowy "they" to whom we owe money and who conspire to keep us in debt so "they" can control us. Bonds get repaid, and if needed new bonds get issued, and they are traded on the market. It's not even the holder of maturing bonds that take up the new ones if an issue is rolled over at maturity.

 

 



 

 

As far as control, the only issue is that if we don't repay on time (or look like we might not) then our credit rating suffers and lenders (understandably) want a higher interest rate to lend to us. This pushes up interest rates for the government, which flows right across the economy (business borrowing, mortgages, credit cares) as these tend to be prices at a margin over the government rate. The government therefore cares about it's credit rating and creditworthiness, and takes care to make payments on time and convince markets it is a good credit risk. That is about as far as "control" goes.

 
 
 
 


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  #1153164 13-Oct-2014 21:11
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JimmyH:
heylinb4nz:
joker97: To whom do we owe money?

Which countries are free of any debt?


World Bank & IMF come to mind. No countries are debt free which is quite scary when you consider the level of debt (and thus control) that a small group of money lending organisations have over world governments. Common theme seems to be that the countries without international banks are the ones we are bombing and trying to install democracy into.


As far as I am aware the Government hasn't borrowed from either the World Bank or the IMF - and countries usually only do this when they are in distress (or very poor with a development project they can't fund). Nor has it significantly borrowed directly from international banks. Borrowings are largely from selling NZ Government bonds and T-bills into the money market, where they are purchased by whoever offers the highest price (=lowest interest rate) at auction.

There is no shadowy "they" to whom we owe money and who conspire to keep us in debt so "they" can control us. Bonds get repaid, and if needed new bonds get issued, and they are traded on the market. It's not even the holder of maturing bonds that take up the new ones if an issue is rolled over at maturity.

As far as control, the only issue is that if we don't repay on time (or look like we might not) then our credit rating suffers and lenders (understandably) want a higher interest rate to lend to us. This pushes up interest rates for the government, which flows right across the economy (business borrowing, mortgages, credit cares) as these tend to be prices at a margin over the government rate. The government therefore cares about it's credit rating and creditworthiness, and takes care to make payments on time and convince markets it is a good credit risk. That is about as far as "control" goes.


Steady now. We don't want sane and rational economic commentary when there is a good chance to dust off the tinfoil hat.....





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  #1153234 14-Oct-2014 00:30
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Where does money/currency come from?

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  #1153240 14-Oct-2014 06:32
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VeryWoolly: Where does money/currency come from?


Its a bill of exchange with no intrinsic value, its worth comes from its primary purpose and its value comes from the assets backing it. In itself it is nearly a printed and forged product sold by a mint and detailed by a bank.




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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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  #1153254 14-Oct-2014 07:39
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KiwiNZ:
VeryWoolly: Where does money/currency come from?


Its a bill of exchange with no intrinsic value, its worth comes from its primary purpose and its value comes from the assets backing it. In itself it is nearly a printed and forged product sold by a mint and detailed by a bank.

Bank loan and mortgage interest isn't asset backed and is one method I can think of where currency comes from, it is effectively pulled from thin air, especially with leveraging and minimum security for banks (can't think of the proper term off the top of my head).

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  #1153257 14-Oct-2014 07:53
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It's interesting that Singapore national debt was rated at 115% of gdp but the govt says they are all backed by assets with returns higher than interest so they in effect have no debt

???




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


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  #1153278 14-Oct-2014 08:14
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MrJonathanNZ:
KiwiNZ:
VeryWoolly: Where does money/currency come from?


Its a bill of exchange with no intrinsic value, its worth comes from its primary purpose and its value comes from the assets backing it. In itself it is nearly a printed and forged product sold by a mint and detailed by a bank.

Bank loan and mortgage interest isn't asset backed and is one method I can think of where currency comes from, it is effectively pulled from thin air, especially with leveraging and minimum security for banks (can't think of the proper term off the top of my head).


Bank loan and is just another exchange method, interest the fee for using that exchange.




Mike

 

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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #1153332 14-Oct-2014 09:14
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This explains everything very well

http://hiddensecretsofmoney.com/videos/episode-4

In fact id recommend the other videos in the series which explain the difference between currency and money. I guarantee after you watch this you will think long and hard about where this whole fiat currency scam is heading.

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  #1153481 14-Oct-2014 11:37
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heylinb4nz: This explains everything very well

http://hiddensecretsofmoney.com/videos/episode-4

In fact id recommend the other videos in the series which explain the difference between currency and money. I guarantee after you watch this you will think long and hard about where this whole fiat currency scam is heading.


It's heading wherever it heads.

Not one of us can do a blind thing about it, so why worry? Just live your life and be happy.

I keep real gold and firearms in case the world goes to hell in a handcart, but beyond that there's nowt I can do but enjoy my time on the planet.





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  #1153483 14-Oct-2014 11:40
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Geektastic:
heylinb4nz: This explains everything very well

http://hiddensecretsofmoney.com/videos/episode-4

In fact id recommend the other videos in the series which explain the difference between currency and money. I guarantee after you watch this you will think long and hard about where this whole fiat currency scam is heading.


It's heading wherever it heads.

Not one of us can do a blind thing about it, so why worry? Just live your life and be happy.

I keep real gold and firearms in case the world goes to hell in a handcart, but beyond that there's nowt I can do but enjoy my time on the planet.


yep, worry about only that which you can change or influence and learn to duck the rest, saves on doctors appointments and antacids.




Mike

 

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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #1154045 15-Oct-2014 00:17
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Interesting conversation.

Why do corporations need welfare?

Why does IS need bombing and funding at the same time?

Why does osama and obama ryhme? (some sort of cosmic joke?) What are the chances of that occurring?

Why do working couples pay tax but need working for families to survive?

Why is double speak common eg War is peace, help is enslavement, negative patient care outcome is the patient died?

Can anyone work out what the following means?
"It is a tricky problem to find the particular calibration in timing that would be appropriate to stem the acceleration in risk premiums created by falling incomes without prematurely aborting the decline in the inflation-generated risk premiums." Alan G.

Another one?
Obama will fund the moderate extremists, but not the extremist extremists even though the moderate extremists pass on weapons to the extremist extremists?

Mandate to govern? Divine right of kings?

http://stormcloudsgathering.com/rule-from-the-shadows-the-psychology-of-power-part-1

Solutions:
Let it go, let it happen and laugh. "George Carlin"
Open peoples minds. "Bill Hicks"
Engage with neighbors and say "hello"

There are tech solutions being proposed:
https://www.neighbourly.co.nz/

https://www.loomio.org/

http://www.1000minds.com/

Why does the Switzerland government only meet once a week?

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” Upton Sinclair.

gzt

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  #1154164 15-Oct-2014 09:50
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and there ends a demonstration of the limitations of the socratic method.

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  #1154401 15-Oct-2014 13:05
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ckc:
shk292: Two things:
1 - there was a GFC and a recession.  The opposite of going into debt would have been austerity, mass unemployment and misery.  On the other extreme, moaning Russell would have us printing lots of money.  I think National and Bill English did a great job of treading the compromise line to keep the economy going without running up a vast debt
2 - is it more fair for current citizens to pay for stuff via interest that they can use in their lifetime, or pay to save up for stuff that won't be available until they are dead?  It's the same way as you don't save for a house for thirty years and then move in when you're 55, you get a mortgage so you pay for the house as you use it


I want to point out that personally, we're doing well under National. But we'd do well under any government. So this isn't about us.

We (NZ) are doing austerity. This is why your government services suck, why the Ombudsman is underfunded, why they're doing their best to trim all benefits they see as superfluous, why they increased GST. Real cuts across the board. Hiring freezes. Public sector cap. Hey, even the police are being cut in some areas like HB, despite increases in crime. It also depends what you mean by mass unemployment, because it's currently at 5.6% but it's been above 6% for the majority of National's tenure in government. That's bad. That's probably twice what it should be in a healthy economy.

Sure, it's not as bad as last time they were in power, but public service cuts in lower level staff while the ministers and CEs remain handsomely compensated doesn't indicate a healthy system. I left the public sector because, well, all the good people left and we were being merged, so more jobs were going. Now I'm in academia and our department can't even afford to deliver tutorials for core modules. NZ university rankings have dropped since National were in power, too - because they can't afford teaching and research staff of the quality they need. And we DO have a vast debt. We have vast public and private debt. Net debt is currently about $20,000 per capita, nearly 40% of GDP and we didn't even have to bail out major financial institutions. Gross debt is something like 125% of GDP.

This economy has been so badly mismanaged it's unbelievable. The amount of money we missed out on when English suspended super is unbelievable. The amount of money that EQC missed out on because the government ignored advice to increase the levies has contributed to the debt increase too. I get so tired of hearing that earthquake excuse. Either the earthquake has improved GDP, or it's increased debt - and it's done both of those things, but hardly anyone refers to Labour's failure to increase levies - or the bad decision about funding EQC made by National in 2008 precipitating the funding gap. National are letting us be strongarmed by foreign companies on the basis that we're screwed without them. They take up money in subsidies for keeping factories open, subsidies that these companies don't need, while Women's Refuge operate on a shoestring.

Every single decision they've made has been based on voodoo economics - crap that didn't work 30 years ago in the US, that certainly isn't working now. Every time they've done something it's been because they've courted populism. None of it makes any real sense - suspend super, not making Kiwisaver compulsory AND not planning to raise the retirement age? That's barking mad. If I balanced my own finances like that, I'd be screwed in 10 years.

And if I managed my career like National managed what business the country does, I'd be screwed in less time. They have no ideas for innovation. They have no emphasis on green tech the rest of the world needs, that we could support with good money. They have NO ideas except merge, restructure, fire.

5 new taxes mantra during the election? Oh, we might cut taxes, maybe in three years. Jam tomorrow. And now guess what? The predicted surplus still isn't a surplus. Except unlike when English makes a thin surplus and National get to crow about it, it's now someone else's fault. No jam. Someone else stole the jam that National were going to give you!

I don't usually get into these arguments, because it's like pissing in the wind. But man. Hearing National doing a good job? Hearing that is like hearing Hammett did a good job at the Canes. It defies logic and observational evidence.


Ahhh, a former Public Servant & current academic who doesn't like a centre right Govt & spouts a whole bunch of fallacy. How surprising.

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  #1154444 15-Oct-2014 14:16
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VeryWoolly:Why does osama and obama ryhme? (some sort of cosmic joke?) What are the chances of that occurring?


Rare and one-in-a-million things happen all the time.

VeryWoolly:Open peoples minds. "Bill Hicks"


Which, going by all the Bill Hicks I've heard (and I've heard it all), translates to: believe in aliens, conspiracy theories and take hallucinogens.




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