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turnin
509 posts

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  #1168643 4-Nov-2014 16:52
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Elpie:
turnin:
I suppose you could argue that if people were taught how to drive cars and be aware of the inherent risks of weight and momentum and to use common sense then we wouldn't need to ban everything, but you didn't, so, see you on the bus.


How you can equate driving cars to use of fireworks, I don't know. I imagine that even you might want to ban cars if they were landing on your roof, setting your house on fire, destroying your sleep for weeks on end, and causing physical harm to you and/or your family. We have laws and enforcement for hoons ripping up streets and making a lot of noise even when said hoons are having fun. Not so with fireworks. 

I stand by what I said - licenses for fireworks to be used at private events (even outside the Guy Fawkes period) and ban on sale to the general public. 


easily ! Cars cause far more death and injury than fireworks do ,mainly because the user fails to pay attention to the risks involved. Every single day this happens.
the problem is identical.  

DravidDavid
1894 posts

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  #1168656 4-Nov-2014 17:06
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jeffnz:
DravidDavid:
Fires, damage to property and other accidents are just that.  ACCIDENTAL.  They can be solved at a later date.  Be a reasonable person, come to a compromise instead and stop trying to ruin the fun for 4 million people because you own a dog with anxiety problems.


Unbelievable really so don't worry about the damage to people or property or the emergency services running around all over the place as long as "some" people can impose their "fun" on others. It wouldn't be so bad if it was something that benefited society or was actually required but it isn't its just a waste of time, find something else to do there is a huge choice.


People who end up causing damage or wasting the time of emergency services are the ones that would eventually find another way to do exactly the same thing with something else.  Those "some" people are the responsible majority who genuinely enjoy fireworks.  Some people enjoy sports, people die enjoying sports all the time.  Mostly by accident, but even though I hate sports, I'm not about to start a petition to ban sports because a bruised ankle is a waste of a nurses time when she could be dealing with another injury.

People that are responisble with fireworks, pets and considerate to neighbors shouldn't be punished for the decisions of a stupid minority group that use fireworks as experimental torture devices or arson sticks.  Those people are the same people that would be causing trouble with or without a ban on fireworks.

The better option if something had to be done would be to tax them to the moon like the government does to everything else that might do damage.  Perhaps private display licenses after a three hour course.  The extra tax revenue can pay for groups that want one.  Those who seriously want to practice backyard pyrotechnics in the name of a failed criminal act that has nothing to do with this country can do so with the right qualification.  At least give people the means to do so if they want.  Banning everything just makes those people mad.

 
 
 
 


Elpie
1304 posts

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  #1168659 4-Nov-2014 17:13
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turnin:
Elpie:
turnin:
I suppose you could argue that if people were taught how to drive cars and be aware of the inherent risks of weight and momentum and to use common sense then we wouldn't need to ban everything, but you didn't, so, see you on the bus.


How you can equate driving cars to use of fireworks, I don't know. I imagine that even you might want to ban cars if they were landing on your roof, setting your house on fire, destroying your sleep for weeks on end, and causing physical harm to you and/or your family. We have laws and enforcement for hoons ripping up streets and making a lot of noise even when said hoons are having fun. Not so with fireworks. 

I stand by what I said - licenses for fireworks to be used at private events (even outside the Guy Fawkes period) and ban on sale to the general public. 


easily ! Cars cause far more death and injury than fireworks do ,mainly because the user fails to pay attention to the risks involved. Every single day this happens.
the problem is identical.  


You don't have to educate me about the dangers of cars. My husband was killed after being run off the road a couple of days before Xmas. Nothing quite like burying your husband on Xmas Eve when his presents are sitting under the tree and your children are having Christmas ruined for all time.
I am disabled after an idiot decided to do a u-turn at an intersection and slam into the back of my car. I live with pain every moment of my life due to someone being irresponsible with a car. 

However, you are comparing apples to hogs feet. Fireworks are not used by as many people, on as many occasions, as cars are. Nobody has ever kept records of the damages and costs involved with fireworks. Vehicle statistics are meticulously kept but the number of people suffering injury from fireworks is not. 

Fireworks provide momentary fun. I love watching them as much as anyone else. I also like to have quiet enjoyment of my own home, safe from the risk of fire and damage caused by other people's "fun". If people don't know how to have fun without fireworks then they are leading very sad lives.

mattwnz
16852 posts

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  #1168662 4-Nov-2014 17:19
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Hammerer: We had nine years without buying fireworks. During that time we went to big events and small groups we were invited to join. IMO there is no comparison: small groups meeting with our own fireworks are much more memorable. The kids love a little "danger" and learn  some important lessons about fire, chemistry, explosives and safety. But even without that I still vote to keep them. Now my kids are teens and older it is even more fun.

 

The problem is that the irresponsible people ruin it for everyone else. So the laws have to cater to the most stupid people in society, and the fact is that their are irresponsible and inconsiderate people using fireworks in ways that cause harm and a nuisance. If there was a way so they couldn't be sold them, but I doubt there is without certification. 

turnin
509 posts

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  #1168672 4-Nov-2014 17:29
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@Elpie . One of my former roles was to educate people about the dangers of cars and what to concentrate on whilst driving them, I sympathise for that matter.
But the reasons people make mistakes with cars and fireworks are the same. 
A significant lack of the perception of the dangers and inadequate training (which licencing does not adequately address).
People also hurt themselves on ladders, steps, kitchen knives, slippery floors and sharp stones on driveways. We don't require banning of the activity or licencing to make doing that activity safer.
Nor should we, nor should we for a moment suggest the activity is "safe" when performed in a certain way, as we frequently do with driving.

How many parents get their kids to actually read the instructions on fireworks, or have their kids ensure that launching apparatus is secure, to have them go through the exercise of naming 5 things that could go wrong, or 5 contingencies ?  none right.
But we'll ban everything at the drop of a hat, that's not evolution, thats going backwards
People , of all ages, need to pay attention to potential dangers and think ahead. It's as simple as that.

DravidDavid
1894 posts

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  #1168676 4-Nov-2014 17:33
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Elpie:
Fireworks provide momentary fun. I love watching them as much as anyone else. I also like to have quiet enjoyment of my own home, safe from the risk of fire and damage caused by other people's "fun". If people don't know how to have fun without fireworks then they are leading very sad lives.


It sounds as if you've had a previous fire event at your house.  Inform the police your neighbours are using explosives recklessly and are endangering your property and the people inside.  When they don't respond you can tell them that you see smoke and you think it might be weed.  You will have 4 patrol cars, two dog units and a helicopter to stop them before their sparklers go out.

Otherwise, any damage (considering your neighbors were/are not being reckless and following instructions) must be considered accidental.  That is what insurance is for.  If an accident happens, you are protected.  Since it would be silly to not have it for a house that you own considering there are other eminent risks that threaten it every day...Such as the Chinese multi-plug connected to your TV catching fire or the dodgy wiring in the walls of your house burning up while you sleep.

I don't agree with the "If people don't know how to have fun without "XXX REASON" argument...

 

People love alcohol.  Some insist they can't have fun without it.  I hate it and I certainly can...But why ban it when most people use it responsibly?  Those who don't...well they get punished as per the letter of the law.  If it gets banned, everyone gets punished.

A ban is stupid.  Raise the price, license the sale, educate the people and put them away for three years with no parole if they cause harm.

Mark
1550 posts

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  #1168696 4-Nov-2014 17:50
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Elpie: 

However, you are comparing apples to hogs feet. Fireworks are not used by as many people, on as many occasions, as cars are. Nobody has ever kept records of the damages and costs involved with fireworks. Vehicle statistics are meticulously kept but the number of people suffering injury from fireworks is not. 

Fireworks provide momentary fun. I love watching them as much as anyone else. I also like to have quiet enjoyment of my own home, safe from the risk of fire and damage caused by other people's "fun". If people don't know how to have fun without fireworks then they are leading very sad lives.



Actually .. a 30 second stint on Google shows that ACC do indeed keep track of firework related injuries and the NZ Fire service also keeps track of firework related incidents.

If the PC brigade have their say we'll soon have no fun things left!  Already pillaging is a frowned on, crusades are over, and even being a pirate is difficult to get into!

Maybe all those nay sayers for fireworks should move to their own gated communities ?  They could wrap everything in soft non-flammable foam as well to make everything extra safe, and even put together all sorts of local by-laws banning whatever they don't like or agree with.


 
 
 
 


MikeB4
15555 posts

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  #1168700 4-Nov-2014 17:55
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Mark:
Elpie: 

However, you are comparing apples to hogs feet. Fireworks are not used by as many people, on as many occasions, as cars are. Nobody has ever kept records of the damages and costs involved with fireworks. Vehicle statistics are meticulously kept but the number of people suffering injury from fireworks is not. 

Fireworks provide momentary fun. I love watching them as much as anyone else. I also like to have quiet enjoyment of my own home, safe from the risk of fire and damage caused by other people's "fun". If people don't know how to have fun without fireworks then they are leading very sad lives.



Actually .. a 30 second stint on Google shows that ACC do indeed keep track of firework related injuries and the NZ Fire service also keeps track of firework related incidents.

If the PC brigade have their say we'll soon have no fun things left!  Already pillaging is a frowned on, crusades are over, and even being a pirate is difficult to get into!

Maybe all those nay sayers for fireworks should move to their own gated communities ?  They could wrap everything in soft non-flammable foam as well to make everything extra safe, and even put together all sorts of local by-laws banning whatever they don't like or agree with.



So you regard it as OK if some muppet sets fire to the Hills, damages or destroys a neighbours home, injures an innocent person going for an evening walk all to celebrate an irrelevant event? 

I don't give a snot if the muppets destroy their own homes or injure themselves I object to the rest.

DravidDavid
1894 posts

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  #1168707 4-Nov-2014 18:04
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KiwiNZ:
Mark:
Elpie: 

However, you are comparing apples to hogs feet. Fireworks are not used by as many people, on as many occasions, as cars are. Nobody has ever kept records of the damages and costs involved with fireworks. Vehicle statistics are meticulously kept but the number of people suffering injury from fireworks is not. 

Fireworks provide momentary fun. I love watching them as much as anyone else. I also like to have quiet enjoyment of my own home, safe from the risk of fire and damage caused by other people's "fun". If people don't know how to have fun without fireworks then they are leading very sad lives.



Actually .. a 30 second stint on Google shows that ACC do indeed keep track of firework related injuries and the NZ Fire service also keeps track of firework related incidents.

If the PC brigade have their say we'll soon have no fun things left!  Already pillaging is a frowned on, crusades are over, and even being a pirate is difficult to get into!

Maybe all those nay sayers for fireworks should move to their own gated communities ?  They could wrap everything in soft non-flammable foam as well to make everything extra safe, and even put together all sorts of local by-laws banning whatever they don't like or agree with.


So you regard it as OK if some muppet sets fire to the Hills, damages or destroys a neighbours home, injures an innocent person going for an evening walk all to celebrate an irrelevant event? 

I don't give a snot if the muppets destroy their own homes or injure themselves I object to the rest.


What you just said could be applied to pretty much everything ever.

I can get anyone a good deal on bubble wrap if they want.  Evening walks can be easily postponed until the 6th of November if there are really people so worried about their hair catching fire.  The reality is S*** happens all the time and often when people are having fun.  As for the hills catching fire, well that's a constant threat, but I can't remember the last time we lost a significant amount of bush to a rogue firework.  I'm sure the experts whos job it is to assess and mitigate the threat level have it covered.

Elpie
1304 posts

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  #1168755 4-Nov-2014 18:59
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Until 6th November? You don't live in Palmy ;) Fireworks keep going, at all hours of the night, for pretty much every night all month long. It will start easing off in December.
In the meantime, it's hell for animals and the people that care for them, distressing to the elderly and young children trying to sleep, and intrusive into the lifestyles of many other people. Even to people that enjoy a private fireworks party on one night of the year. 

Hammerer
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  #1168756 4-Nov-2014 19:02
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mattwnz:
Hammerer: We had nine years without buying fireworks. During that time we went to big events and small groups we were invited to join. IMO there is no comparison: small groups meeting with our own fireworks are much more memorable. The kids love a little "danger" and learn  some important lessons about fire, chemistry, explosives and safety. But even without that I still vote to keep them. Now my kids are teens and older it is even more fun.

The problem is that the irresponsible people ruin it for everyone else. So the laws have to cater to the most stupid people in society, and the fact is that their are irresponsible and inconsiderate people using fireworks in ways that cause harm and a nuisance. If there was a way so they couldn't be sold them, but I doubt there is without certification. 


Clearly it is not the case that "laws have to cater to the most stupid people in society". That would be too extreme. Take alcohol consumption laws, people continue to be far stupider than the restrictions placed upon them by those laws. Others have already mentioned other areas like

The main reason that people will try to ban fireworks is that it can be done so easily. I'd much prefer the work to be done on far less appealing but proportionally more destructive issues. The far greater benefit from restricting excessive alcohol consumption is much more difficult to implement even though it has a much higher cost-benefit. Other posts have provided similar issues.

Elpie
1304 posts

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  #1168759 4-Nov-2014 19:08
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DravidDavid: 
It sounds as if you've had a previous fire event at your house.  

 

Yes, last year my neighbours let off fireworks close to the boundary. My roof caught fire and the fire brigade came out. Had they landed on the other property adjoining them and set that alight the outcome may have been very different. I was still up trying to calm my dog. The other neighbour, a lady in her 80's, was always in bed very early. I smelled smoke and took action right away after ascertaining that my place was smoking. The elderly lady would likely have stayed asleep. She slept through the sirens and activity when the fire brigade arrived here. She slept through them checking her property. We are in an old established part of town. My house walls and hers are each a metre from the boundary with roof overhangs taking us much closer. Both our houses are an entire yard away from the place where the fireworks were being let off. They took it to the edge of their property to protect their house. They were doing the same thing again last night. Nothing wrong with that, of course, because they are just having fun. 



Elpie
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  #1168769 4-Nov-2014 19:15
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Bigger question is perhaps, why are we celebrating the death of a terrorist? A terrorist that hasn't even got any relationship to NZ. Should we be having an Osama Bin Laden day? Or, perhaps we should celebrate Guy Fawkes properly by hanging, drawing, and quartering some low-lifes? When you think about it, blowing money up on Chinese made pyrotechnics in honour of the gruesome death of a terrorist is pretty sick. 

 

If we want to teach our kids anything on Guy Fawkes Day perhaps we'd be better off teaching them about Guy Fawkes and why parliament and democracy is important rather than pretending that they learn about safety through blowing things up. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MikeB4
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  #1168786 4-Nov-2014 19:22
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Elpie: Bigger question is perhaps, why are we celebrating the death of a terrorist? A terrorist that hasn't even got any relationship to NZ. Should we be having an Osama Bin Laden day? Or, perhaps we should celebrate Guy Fawkes properly by hanging, drawing, and quartering some low-lifes? When you think about it, blowing money up on Chinese made pyrotechnics in honour of the gruesome death of a terrorist is pretty sick. 

If we want to teach our kids anything on Guy Fawkes Day perhaps we'd be better off teaching them about Guy Fawkes and why parliament and democracy is important rather than pretending that they learn about safety through blowing things up. 
 
 
 


That's why I wrote earlier that if we really need to do this it would better done for something more relevant to New Zealand for example Waitangi Day or Matatriki

turnin
509 posts

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  #1168798 4-Nov-2014 19:43
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Elpie: Bigger question is perhaps, why are we celebrating the death of a terrorist? A terrorist that hasn't even got any relationship to NZ. Should we be having an Osama Bin Laden day? Or, perhaps we should celebrate Guy Fawkes properly by hanging, drawing, and quartering some low-lifes? When you think about it, blowing money up on Chinese made pyrotechnics in honour of the gruesome death of a terrorist is pretty sick. 
If we want to teach our kids anything on Guy Fawkes Day perhaps we'd be better off teaching them about Guy Fawkes and why parliament and democracy is important rather than pretending that they learn about safety through blowing things up.       


I don't know, what came first guy fawkes or modern democracy? I always thought it was there as a reminder of what happens when the public get upset with elected representatives who mislead the population. Notice the reinactment is of the action of Guy Falkes rather than his death, guess that would be a bit much for the kids in the neighbourhood :)


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