Should fireworks be banned from public sale.

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#1168800 4-Nov-2014 19:49

Elpie:
mattwnz: The fact that anyone can buy them, and you don't need any certification or handling course to handle the explosive just shows why so many people are hurt and fires are started every year.

Ironically, people have to jump through hoops and have a license if they want to buy gunpowder. Yet, any bozo can buy gunpowder wrapped up with bangy things [...].

Only the stupid ones would be deterred by those hoops if they wanted gunpowder for fireworks or other uses. If you have a bit of patience, and can follow simple instructions, it's ridiculously easy to make from commonly available ingredients. The hardest bit to get is saltpetre, but you can make that the Elizabethan way from the scrapings of a farmyard if you really want to. The reality is that anyone with basic highschool chemistry is able to make substantial quantities of black powder if they really want it.

(Yes, I still remember how to do it, I was a teenager once)

EDIT: Typo

Hammerer

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#1168801 4-Nov-2014 19:51

turnin:
Elpie: Bigger question is perhaps, why are we celebrating the death of a terrorist? A terrorist that hasn't even got any relationship to NZ. Should we be having an Osama Bin Laden day? Or, perhaps we should celebrate Guy Fawkes properly by hanging, drawing, and quartering some low-lifes? When you think about it, blowing money up on Chinese made pyrotechnics in honour of the gruesome death of a terrorist is pretty sick.
If we want to teach our kids anything on Guy Fawkes Day perhaps we'd be better off teaching them about Guy Fawkes and why parliament and democracy is important rather than pretending that they learn about safety through blowing things up.

I don't know, what came first guy fawkes or modern democracy? I always thought it was there as a reminder of what happens when the public get upset with elected representatives who mislead the population. Notice the reinactment is of the action of Guy Falkes rather than his death, guess that would be a bit much for the kids in the neighbourhood :)

Until the 1970s the reenactment involved wheeling a guy fawkes around in a barrow and burning him on a bonfire.

Children would ask for a "Penny for the Guy" and visit the houses much like they do now for sweets on Halloween.

gzt

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#1168890 4-Nov-2014 21:46

Elpie: Until 6th November? You don't live in Palmy ;) Fireworks keep going, at all hours of the night, for pretty much every night all month long. It will start easing off in December. In the meantime, it's hell for animals and the people that care for them, distressing to the elderly and young children trying to sleep, and intrusive into the lifestyles of many other people. Even to people that enjoy a private fireworks party on one night of the year.

Yep. Here in Auckland, fireworks from November to September with only a few in October before it all starts again. The year round idiots are making the situation intolerable and it seems inevitable it will end. The increased marketing efforts by pop-up sellers and increase in availability and trending higher sales are a factor in the long tail time.

The single biggest problem is the noise level.

If all fireworks were silent except those provided for licensed users it would solve 95% of the social and environmental problems with the long tail. or as close as possible to a reasonable definition for the current technology. With exceptions for licensed users.

toyonut

1508 posts

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#1168910 4-Nov-2014 22:26

Well it is now 10pm and the neighbours down the road are letting them off still. Luckily it is not the ones up the hill from us who are a house away from my daughters window. even so, I am surprised she is not awake. For everyone asking for moderation and saying they are responsible and use them only in groups with friends and family, good for you, but the idiots who have been putting on fireworks shows every night since they went on sale and will for a month to come are the ones who have ruined it for everyone.
Should fireworks be banned, maybe, maybe not, but they are too hard to regulate without a blanket ban. Shortening the time they are on sale hasn't worked, police can't be expected to enforce every person who lets off a few and likely won't be doing it when the police arrive. Noise control can only shut it down and confiscate things after 11pm I believe. Either they tax the heck out of them like cigarettes, or they just ban them. I'm pretty sure it is easier to legislate a ban than a tax.

Also to the guys saying you can make explosives, that is not the same as buying a giant box of them for $17. I made a smoke bomb with friends, it took us the best part of a day to get the necessary bits, cook it up, ruin a pot making it and then find somewhere to set it off. That is a big barrier most people are just not going to cross, especially if they have to gather manure and horse urine. That is before you have even found a way to package and set it off. It is also a lot more personally risky - Darwin award style risky. If they can go to the warehouse or countdown which are open late too and buy some, that is an easy thing to do, making black powder, not so much.

Try Vultr using this link and get us both some credit:

http://www.vultr.com/?ref=7033587-3B

saeran

139 posts

Master Geek

#1168963 5-Nov-2014 00:06

JimmyH:
Elpie:
mattwnz: The fact that anyone can buy them, and you don't need any certification or handling course to handle the explosive just shows why so many people are hurt and fires are started every year.

Ironically, people have to jump through hoops and have a license if they want to buy gunpowder. Yet, any bozo can buy gunpowder wrapped up with bangy things [...].

Only the stupid ones would be deterred by those hoops if they wanted gunpowder for fireworks or other uses. If you have a bit of patience, and can follow simple instructions, it's ridiculously easy to make from commonly available ingredients. The hardest bit to get is saltpetre, but you can make that the Elizabethan way from the scrapings of a farmyard if you really want to. The reality is that anyone with basic highschool chemistry is able to make substantial quantities of black powder if they really want it.

(Yes, I still remember how to do it, I was a teenager once)

EDIT: Typo

Your average consumer is not going to do that...

Elpie

1304 posts

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#1168965 5-Nov-2014 00:31

12:30am and another group has started. These have been going on and off around the neighbourhood since just before 7:30pm, before it was even dark. I'm not fazed by the noise because I am still up doing things but I feel very sorry for the people trying to sleep.

mattwnz

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#1168967 5-Nov-2014 01:02

I wonder if there has actually been an assessment of how much fireworks have actually cost in terms of fires which have been started, and people burnt badly badly (some life changing). They probaly also create lots of poisonous bi products as the explode, and they end up in our landfills.
That fact that they are banning older woodburners in many parts of NZ, with very little assessment of the damage they cause to peoples health, but they still allow fireworks which have the potential to cause great harm, shows how mixed up things are in NZ.

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roobarb

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#1169010 5-Nov-2014 08:32

A quote from recent events

Of the 63 deaths since 2000, more than 75 per cent were male, almost half were Maori and more than 87 per cent were aged under 24 years.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10641432/Screams-after-Auckland-huffing-explosion

You can't legislate against stupidity.

This thread has a common theme of misunderstanding why we remember Guido Fawkes, the point is to remember what happens to people convicted of treason. I would have thought after 13 years of 'war on terror' that would be relevant.

I'm not sure how you can complain about occasional fireworks after raving about an eight hour Battlefield 3 session played over a home theater system.

The wishy-washy namby-pampy nimbys solve the problem of the debate on the national flag. It should be the wet-blanket, unfortunately there is not a heraldic tincture for a "field of grey".

MikeB4

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#1169019 5-Nov-2014 08:55

roobarb: A quote from recent events

Of the 63 deaths since 2000, more than 75 per cent were male, almost half were Maori and more than 87 per cent were aged under 24 years.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10641432/Screams-after-Auckland-huffing-explosion

You can't legislate against stupidity.

This thread has a common theme of misunderstanding why we remember Guido Fawkes, the point is to remember what happens to people convicted of treason. I would have thought after 13 years of 'war on terror' that would be relevant.

I'm not sure how you can complain about occasional fireworks after raving about an eight hour Battlefield 3 session played over a home theater system.

The wishy-washy namby-pampy nimbys solve the problem of the debate on the national flag. It should be the wet-blanket, unfortunately there is not a heraldic tincture for a "field of grey".

One can oppose a view without insults, it is possible

Geektastic

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#1169020 5-Nov-2014 08:59

Interestingly, in a number of US states you can actually buy explosives for blowing up tree stumps and so on with no special paperwork. I am sure you can buy fireworks when you want to as well. Unless the rules have changed since I left, there was no date restriction on buying them in the UK either - they were freely available all year round.

Here in NZ we seem to have extra problems with these things. I am not sure why.

Geektastic

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#1169022 5-Nov-2014 09:06

DravidDavid:
Elpie:
Fireworks provide momentary fun. I love watching them as much as anyone else. I also like to have quiet enjoyment of my own home, safe from the risk of fire and damage caused by other people's "fun". If people don't know how to have fun without fireworks then they are leading very sad lives.

It sounds as if you've had a previous fire event at your house. Inform the police your neighbours are using explosives recklessly and are endangering your property and the people inside. When they don't respond you can tell them that you see smoke and you think it might be weed. You will have 4 patrol cars, two dog units and a helicopter to stop them before their sparklers go out.

Otherwise, any damage (considering your neighbors were/are not being reckless and following instructions) must be considered accidental. That is what insurance is for. If an accident happens, you are protected. Since it would be silly to not have it for a house that you own considering there are other eminent risks that threaten it every day...Such as the Chinese multi-plug connected to your TV catching fire or the dodgy wiring in the walls of your house burning up while you sleep.

I don't agree with the "If people don't know how to have fun without "XXX REASON" argument... People love alcohol. Some insist they can't have fun without it. I hate it and I certainly can...But why ban it when most people use it responsibly? Those who don't...well they get punished as per the letter of the law. If it gets banned, everyone gets punished.

A ban is stupid. Raise the price, license the sale, educate the people and put them away for three years with no parole if they cause harm.

The words "I couldn't see very well as it is dark but I think one of them had a gun" will get them round like Barry Allen on steroids....! A policeman once told me that those were the magic words to use if someone was breaking into your house.

networkn

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#1169029 5-Nov-2014 09:27

Elpie: 12:30am and another group has started. These have been going on and off around the neighbourhood since just before 7:30pm, before it was even dark. I'm not fazed by the noise because I am still up doing things but I feel very sorry for the people trying to sleep.

Yet they don't legislate xmas parties which make much more noise in a much more sustained manner.

Actually be damned, all fun should be banned from here on in, as it's sure to inconvenience someone.

MikeB4

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#1169049 5-Nov-2014 09:36

networkn:
Elpie: 12:30am and another group has started. These have been going on and off around the neighbourhood since just before 7:30pm, before it was even dark. I'm not fazed by the noise because I am still up doing things but I feel very sorry for the people trying to sleep.

Yet they don't legislate xmas parties which make much more noise in a much more sustained manner.

Actually be damned, all fun should be banned from here on in, as it's sure to inconvenience someone.

There are noise control regs

SepticSceptic

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#1169051 5-Nov-2014 09:39

Don't forget to ban thunder and lightning as well, as it scares the animals and terrifies the children ...

JimmyC

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#1169085 5-Nov-2014 10:15

SepticSceptic: Don't forget to ban thunder and lightning as well, as it scares the animals and terrifies the children ...

We have considerably less instances of thunder and lightning in our neighbourhood per year than fireworks but ymmv. Lightning has never hit our roof either in the 9 years we've lived there. We've definitely had more than 9 skyrockets land either on our house or in our section during that time however.

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