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SirHumphreyAppleby
1416 posts

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  #1170143 6-Nov-2014 15:55
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surfisup1000:
I have to disagree.   Todays fireworks are more dangerous. We've had 2 or 3 of those big shooter boxes explode out the side of the box shooting flaming balls out horizontally.  And, these 'slow' burning balls land on houses and burn.  

I think sky rockets may have been safer than the souped up bangers they sell today. 

Next, you say this is a few nights a year.  But, going by the last 2 or 3 years we could have fireworks going off at all hours during the weekends for the next 6 months or more.

Maybe I could live with fireworks over guy fawkes/new years eve. But, every weekend? 



I don't believe today's fireworks are more dangerous than they used to be, at least from a purely operational perspective. If anything, they are safer.

The compositions used however, are more energetic, and therefore louder with increased potential to cause damage when things go wrong. This is likely due to the limitations on powder content we have, and sourcing of products in a more competitive market. You can still buy crap fireworks like we've always had (minus the crackers and rockets), but those $5 each fireworks are a noticeable step up in quality.





surfisup1000
4875 posts

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  #1170183 6-Nov-2014 16:42
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SirHumphreyAppleby:
surfisup1000:
I have to disagree.   Todays fireworks are more dangerous. We've had 2 or 3 of those big shooter boxes explode out the side of the box shooting flaming balls out horizontally.  And, these 'slow' burning balls land on houses and burn.  

I think sky rockets may have been safer than the souped up bangers they sell today. 

Next, you say this is a few nights a year.  But, going by the last 2 or 3 years we could have fireworks going off at all hours during the weekends for the next 6 months or more.

Maybe I could live with fireworks over guy fawkes/new years eve. But, every weekend? 



I don't believe today's fireworks are more dangerous than they used to be, at least from a purely operational perspective. If anything, they are safer.

The compositions used however, are more energetic, and therefore louder with increased potential to cause damage when things go wrong. This is likely due to the limitations on powder content we have, and sourcing of products in a more competitive market. You can still buy crap fireworks like we've always had (minus the crackers and rockets), but those $5 each fireworks are a noticeable step up in quality.






I'm just speaking anecdotally, but, several of the children in the group we were with were hit by fireworks.

We were using those square boxes that sit on the ground and shoot flaming balls into the air where they explode.   

The flaming balls shot out the side and unfortunately aimed towards the kids.  

This sideways shooting has happened two or three times in the last 6 or 7 years. 

I don't see much difference between the old sky rockets and these flaming balls, they seem to go as high and make just as big a bang if not louder. 



 
 
 
 


mattwnz
16857 posts

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  #1170249 6-Nov-2014 18:47
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surfisup1000:
SirHumphreyAppleby:
surfisup1000:
I have to disagree.   Todays fireworks are more dangerous. We've had 2 or 3 of those big shooter boxes explode out the side of the box shooting flaming balls out horizontally.  And, these 'slow' burning balls land on houses and burn.  

I think sky rockets may have been safer than the souped up bangers they sell today. 

Next, you say this is a few nights a year.  But, going by the last 2 or 3 years we could have fireworks going off at all hours during the weekends for the next 6 months or more.

Maybe I could live with fireworks over guy fawkes/new years eve. But, every weekend? 



I don't believe today's fireworks are more dangerous than they used to be, at least from a purely operational perspective. If anything, they are safer.

The compositions used however, are more energetic, and therefore louder with increased potential to cause damage when things go wrong. This is likely due to the limitations on powder content we have, and sourcing of products in a more competitive market. You can still buy crap fireworks like we've always had (minus the crackers and rockets), but those $5 each fireworks are a noticeable step up in quality.






I'm just speaking anecdotally, but, several of the children in the group we were with were hit by fireworks.

We were using those square boxes that sit on the ground and shoot flaming balls into the air where they explode.   

The flaming balls shot out the side and unfortunately aimed towards the kids.  

This sideways shooting has happened two or three times in the last 6 or 7 years. 

I don't see much difference between the old sky rockets and these flaming balls, they seem to go as high and make just as big a bang if not louder. 




Yes they were new ones that were introduced when skyrockets got banned, that get around the legislation.

JimmyH
2695 posts

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  #1170261 6-Nov-2014 19:15
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SirHumphreyAppleby:
surfisup1000:
I have to disagree.   Todays fireworks are more dangerous. We've had 2 or 3 of those big shooter boxes explode out the side of the box shooting flaming balls out horizontally.  And, these 'slow' burning balls land on houses and burn.  

I think sky rockets may have been safer than the souped up bangers they sell today. 

Next, you say this is a few nights a year.  But, going by the last 2 or 3 years we could have fireworks going off at all hours during the weekends for the next 6 months or more.

Maybe I could live with fireworks over guy fawkes/new years eve. But, every weekend? 



I don't believe today's fireworks are more dangerous than they used to be, at least from a purely operational perspective. If anything, they are safer.

The compositions used however, are more energetic, and therefore louder with increased potential to cause damage when things go wrong. This is likely due to the limitations on powder content we have, and sourcing of products in a more competitive market. You can still buy crap fireworks like we've always had (minus the crackers and rockets), but those $5 each fireworks are a noticeable step up in quality.



They are safer.

The Dompost published some statistics recently (link here). Over the last few years the volume of fireworks sold has gone up (from 1320 tons to 1400 tons), and the amount of damage/incidents over the same period has fallen substantially (Fire Service calls 618-->418, fires caused 267-->187, and injury reports 13-->7).

Elpie
1304 posts

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  #1170265 6-Nov-2014 19:29
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Fireworks went off around here until 5am when a group of idiots went through throwing them at houses. Guttering caught fire across the road. I was really happy thinking I could sleep tonight, after two nights in a row of 3-5am racket. But the rain seems to have gone. Blast!

 

I love fireworks, in their place, which means used properly with respect for other's rights to safety and quiet enjoyment of their own homes. Ban or free-for-all seems to be the only positions being taken here, except by me. Banning public sales doesn't necessarily mean that people cannot have private fun with fireworks. 

 

If I could wave a magic wand, my selfish law change would be as I said in my first post on the topic - a ban on public sales of fireworks with a permit being introduced for private individuals to be permitted to hold fireworks displays on a certain date and time. This would allow people to apply to have fireworks on Guy Fawkes night, or to celebrate New Year, or a wedding. It would limit the activity to one night and make a person accountable while also alerting police and fire to the fact that on the permitted night fireworks would be let off, starting at a certain time. A condition of the permit might be that neighbouring properties are notified. Most people, I suspect, would be accommodating of an occasional night with fireworks if they had notice in advance and knew it was for one night only, not several months on end. 

 

This wouldn't prevent accidents nor would it stop deliberate misuse, but it could lessen these considerably. 

 

The way fireworks sales are now it's only sales that are limited. There is no way to prevent people from stockpiling, nor is there any way to make them accountable should their actions cause distress or damage to others. The only way to mitigate the behaviours that disturb so many people is with a ban on public sales. However, an out-right ban isn't necessary as long as people are prepared to look beyond the "I want to have fun, so screw you" mentality, or the "fireworks users infringe on my rights so they must be stopped" alternative mentality. 

 

It is possible to cater to both, all it needs is some goodwill and thinking outside the square. 

 

 

 

 

SirHumphreyAppleby
1416 posts

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  #1170276 6-Nov-2014 19:42
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Elpie: If I could wave a magic wand, my selfish law change would be as I said in my first post on the topic - a ban on public sales of fireworks with a permit being introduced for private individuals to be permitted to hold fireworks displays on a certain date and time. This would allow people to apply to have fireworks on Guy Fawkes night, or to celebrate New Year, or a wedding. It would limit the activity to one night and make a person accountable while also alerting police and fire to the fact that on the permitted night fireworks would be let off, starting at a certain time. A condition of the permit might be that neighbouring properties are notified.


This won't work unless the requirements for fireworks operators are relaxed. The market for retail-grade products would collapse, and very little 1.4G would be imported. With the laws as they are, only professional operators would be able to run displays at such events using 1.3G. In addition to labour, there is also a great deal of paperwork involved, which means your backyard Guy Fawkes night display would run in to the thousands.

gzt

gzt
11677 posts

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  #1170287 6-Nov-2014 20:10
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networkn: I lit fireworks with my 5 year old in our backyard. It was the highlight of his recent memory I am quite sure. Last year we did this with him and my then 18 month old daughter (watching from a safe distance) and they both loved it, held sparklers and waved them around. 

I would consider it a travesty that this tradition I have been participating in since I was 7 years old, would be ruined by a few loud people worried about a disturbed sleep for a few nights a year. The danger and risk to fire is significantly less than it was 20 years ago, they are LESS noisy and MORE safe than they have ever been before (In fact they are down right toothless now). 

People need to understand that life is risk.

surfisup1000: I have to disagree.   Todays fireworks are more dangerous. We've had 2 or 3 of those big shooter boxes explode out the side of the box shooting flaming balls out horizontally.  And, these 'slow' burning balls land on houses and burn.  

I think sky rockets may have been safer than the souped up bangers they sell today. 

Next, you say this is a few nights a year.  But, going by the last 2 or 3 years we could have fireworks going off at all hours during the weekends for the next 6 months or more.

Maybe I could live with fireworks over guy fawkes/new years eve. But, every weekend?

Networkn you raise some good points but I do not believe they are less noisy, except perhaps maybe on average. There are some seriously loud ones out there and an increase in the number of those.

I have noticed that loud has become part of the sales pitch to some degree. In the UK a maximum volume limit is applied to approval (no idea at what level) but I think that is the way to go in some form. The noise level is the single biggest problem with objectors.

It is a good point about the tradition and enjoyment of children. For this purpose fireworks do not need to be massive or stupidly loud. If it is refocused as fun for kids it could start to get a lot more sensible.

 
 
 
 


SirHumphreyAppleby
1416 posts

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  #1170289 6-Nov-2014 20:13
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gzt: Networkn you raise some good points but I do not believe they are less noisy, except perhaps maybe on average. There are some seriously loud ones out there and an increase in the number of those. I have noticed that loud has become part of the sales pitch to some degree. In the UK a maximum volume limit is applied to approval (no idea at what level) but I think that is the way to go in some form. The noise level is the single biggest problem with objectors.


In NZ, the noise limit for retail fireworks to be issued with a test certificate is 90dB, measured at 15m from, and 1m above the firework.

gzt

gzt
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  #1170292 6-Nov-2014 20:21
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SirHumphreyAppleby:
gzt: Networkn you raise some good points but I do not believe they are less noisy, except perhaps maybe on average. There are some seriously loud ones out there and an increase in the number of those. I have noticed that loud has become part of the sales pitch to some degree. In the UK a maximum volume limit is applied to approval (no idea at what level) but I think that is the way to go in some form. The noise level is the single biggest problem with objectors.


In NZ, the noise limit for retail fireworks to be issued with a test certificate is 90dB, measured at 15m from, and 1m above the firework.

Ok, that surprises me.

Elpie
1304 posts

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  #1170300 6-Nov-2014 20:32
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SirHumphreyAppleby:
Elpie: If I could wave a magic wand, my selfish law change would be as I said in my first post on the topic - a ban on public sales of fireworks with a permit being introduced for private individuals to be permitted to hold fireworks displays on a certain date and time. This would allow people to apply to have fireworks on Guy Fawkes night, or to celebrate New Year, or a wedding. It would limit the activity to one night and make a person accountable while also alerting police and fire to the fact that on the permitted night fireworks would be let off, starting at a certain time. A condition of the permit might be that neighbouring properties are notified.


This won't work unless the requirements for fireworks operators are relaxed. The market for retail-grade products would collapse, and very little 1.4G would be imported. With the laws as they are, only professional operators would be able to run displays at such events using 1.3G. In addition to labour, there is also a great deal of paperwork involved, which means your backyard Guy Fawkes night display would run in to the thousands.


I'm suggesting a complete overhaul of the law pertaining to fireworks. A fireworks permit similar to the backyard fire permits that are currently in force around the country. People should, IMO, be able to have fireworks at special events, such as weddings. Would the retail market really collapse if people had to have permits? I'm not so sure that it would. 

Elpie
1304 posts

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  #1170303 6-Nov-2014 20:37
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gzt: The noise level is the single biggest problem with objectors. 


I think you will find its not the noise level but, rather, the ongoing, lasting for months, night after night, noise that is the biggest issue. The safety issue is also a biggie though. People are far less tolerant of fireworks hitting their houses. I know that since my roof caught fire from fireworks I'm much more concerned about property than I am about how loud the bangs are ;) 

SirHumphreyAppleby
1416 posts

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  #1170334 6-Nov-2014 21:08
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Elpie: I'm suggesting a complete overhaul of the law pertaining to fireworks. A fireworks permit similar to the backyard fire permits that are currently in force around the country. People should, IMO, be able to have fireworks at special events, such as weddings. Would the retail market really collapse if people had to have permits? I'm not so sure that it would. 


I actually agree with you about a complete overhaul of the law. I would personally like to re-write the entire HSNO legislation/regulations regarding fireworks. What you propose is basically what happened prior to HSNO. A permit would be obtained, allowing operators to run displays.

The ease of buying pyro from trucks on the side of the road would disappear, and that is going to have an impact on sales. I expect the total volume would be a tiny fraction of what it is now. If you are going to do impose permits, I would want to see the composition limits on permitted 1.4G pyrotechnics increased in line with other countries. Evidence strongly suggests that people who seek to do things through proper legal channels (i.e. obtaining permits), are unlikely to be the ones abusing the privilege.

networkn
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  #1170363 6-Nov-2014 21:47
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gzt:
networkn: I lit fireworks with my 5 year old in our backyard. It was the highlight of his recent memory I am quite sure. Last year we did this with him and my then 18 month old daughter (watching from a safe distance) and they both loved it, held sparklers and waved them around. 

I would consider it a travesty that this tradition I have been participating in since I was 7 years old, would be ruined by a few loud people worried about a disturbed sleep for a few nights a year. The danger and risk to fire is significantly less than it was 20 years ago, they are LESS noisy and MORE safe than they have ever been before (In fact they are down right toothless now). 

People need to understand that life is risk.

surfisup1000: I have to disagree.   Todays fireworks are more dangerous. We've had 2 or 3 of those big shooter boxes explode out the side of the box shooting flaming balls out horizontally.  And, these 'slow' burning balls land on houses and burn.  

I think sky rockets may have been safer than the souped up bangers they sell today. 

Next, you say this is a few nights a year.  But, going by the last 2 or 3 years we could have fireworks going off at all hours during the weekends for the next 6 months or more.

Maybe I could live with fireworks over guy fawkes/new years eve. But, every weekend?

Networkn you raise some good points but I do not believe they are less noisy, except perhaps maybe on average. There are some seriously loud ones out there and an increase in the number of those.

I have noticed that loud has become part of the sales pitch to some degree. In the UK a maximum volume limit is applied to approval (no idea at what level) but I think that is the way to go in some form. The noise level is the single biggest problem with objectors.

It is a good point about the tradition and enjoyment of children. For this purpose fireworks do not need to be massive or stupidly loud. If it is refocused as fun for kids it could start to get a lot more sensible.


The stuff I bought though I didn't know it was largely just sparks (think volcano) and a spray of a dozens of colours. Really pretty, not scary. We didn't even fire the others, but may do in a couple of days (my 2 yr old daughter is in hospital and I'd like her to see at least a couple).

My kids have been looking forward to it for at least 3 weeks, it just seems pretty sad to consider I would not be able to share this with them on an ongoing basis.

dickytim
2514 posts

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  #1170429 7-Nov-2014 06:25
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Elpie:
SirHumphreyAppleby:
Elpie: If I could wave a magic wand, my selfish law change would be as I said in my first post on the topic - a ban on public sales of fireworks with a permit being introduced for private individuals to be permitted to hold fireworks displays on a certain date and time. This would allow people to apply to have fireworks on Guy Fawkes night, or to celebrate New Year, or a wedding. It would limit the activity to one night and make a person accountable while also alerting police and fire to the fact that on the permitted night fireworks would be let off, starting at a certain time. A condition of the permit might be that neighbouring properties are notified.


This won't work unless the requirements for fireworks operators are relaxed. The market for retail-grade products would collapse, and very little 1.4G would be imported. With the laws as they are, only professional operators would be able to run displays at such events using 1.3G. In addition to labour, there is also a great deal of paperwork involved, which means your backyard Guy Fawkes night display would run in to the thousands.


I'm suggesting a complete overhaul of the law pertaining to fireworks. A fireworks permit similar to the backyard fire permits that are currently in force around the country. People should, IMO, be able to have fireworks at special events, such as weddings. Would the retail market really collapse if people had to have permits? I'm not so sure that it would. 


Who cares about the retail fireworks sector. Pop up shops just in it to make a quick buck. Do they have concern about the damage their product causes or any liability?

SirHumphreyAppleby
1416 posts

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  #1170431 7-Nov-2014 06:39
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dickytim: Who cares about the retail fireworks sector. Pop up shops just in it to make a quick buck. Do they have concern about the damage their product causes or any liability?


I think you will find the majority of those pop up shops are distributing fireworks from a relatively small number of importers. I would like to see more accountability however, so if any product failures do occur, they can be reported back to the importer and the future of that product reassessed if the failure rate is unacceptable. I know some places sell fireworks in unmarked plastic bags, which makes notifying the importer of any problems rather difficult.

All retail fireworks must have a test certificate issued, which requires testing a random sample. In addition to manufacturing defects, failures could also result of improper use, or storage. I do not believe the retailer or importer should be liable for any damages caused by the product.

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