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BrentR
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  #1170280 6-Nov-2014 19:46
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The pessimist in me thinks this is just another handy avenue to detract any media from TPP, just like the flag.

plambrechtsen

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  #1170281 6-Nov-2014 19:47
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SaltyNZ:
MikeSkyrme:
I'm going to assume that people also said the same when the national road toll was 'only' one per year.

Things change.


Yes, they do. But in the face of the far greater threat of the road toll, we didn't ban cars. We didn't force everyone to keep detailed logs of their trips... We thought about it, debated it publicly, and came up with a bunch of solutions that everyone is OK to live with, that are set out in public, and enforced in public, with a public right of appeal for those who believe they have been dealt with unfairly.


And drink driving is still unbelievably high. Yet lowering the blood alcohol limit and raising the drinking age is something that is debated over years.

The number of beheadings Saudi has done this year I'm sure ISIS haven't even come close to it yet where is the outcry? Calls to no longer fund them by no longer buying their oil?

 
 
 
 


plambrechtsen

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  #1170294 6-Nov-2014 20:25
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http://news.stv.tv/west-central/298469-scots-police-to-reveal-use-of-anti-terror-laws-to-spy-journalists/

Seems somehow appropriate to this thread.

Who watches the watchers?? And I refer back to my link on the kitteridge report.

gzt

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  #1170308 6-Nov-2014 20:45
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SaltyNZ: Apparently there are about 80 kiwis under surveillance because they may be potential terrorists, according the the PM's speech yesterday. 80. And about half of them are only suspected of being loudmouths, as opposed to someone who is actually about to perform mayhem. According to Wikipedia, there were 934 Mongrel Mob members in prison in April 2013. So yeah... we definitely need to urgently review what civil rights we should suspend in order to deal with this imminent existential terrorist threat. We only need them to grow by more than an order of magnitude and they'll be roughly as annoying as a bikie gang.

Just a footnote here. That mob membership number is almost certainly wrong and more likely represents some kind of known (and assigned) association metric.

gzt

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  #1170319 6-Nov-2014 20:58
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plambrechtsen:
KiwiNZ: That is why the Government hires professionals to detect, investigate and prevent and not a bunch of internet amateurs who think they know more.
Right.... Fascinating reading I say: http://www.gcsb.govt.nz/assets/GCSB-Compliance-Review/Review-of-Compliance.pdf

The whole GCSB thing came into focus and was examined to some extent because of the high profile American sponsored Kim Dotcom raid.

The SIS has had very little attention but certainly deserves some of the same type of attention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Security_Intelligence_Service#Public_profile

SaltyNZ
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  #1170355 6-Nov-2014 21:36
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gzt:  That mob membership number is almost certainly wrong and more likely represents some kind of known (and assigned) association metric.


Probably. The point is there are lot more of them than 'terrorists'.




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SaltyNZ
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  #1170362 6-Nov-2014 21:44
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plambrechtsen:

And drink driving is still unbelievably high. Yet lowering the blood alcohol limit and raising the drinking age is something that is debated over years.

The number of beheadings Saudi has done this year I'm sure ISIS haven't even come close to it yet where is the outcry? Calls to no longer fund them by no longer buying their oil?


Well, the people that are not kept off the roads with the current laws and penalties are not going to be kept off the roads by lowering the blood alcohol limit either. The only thing that keeps the real idiots off the road is jail. So it would make little difference to restrict things even further for those who are currently law-abiding.

Same with making it impossible to buy pseudoephedrine at the chemist. As far as I can tell from the news, it hasn't stopped anyone from making meth. It seems more like the only two effects are that a) I just don't bother to buy cold & flu medicine because the new stuff is useless, and b) the junkies have to rob more people to pay for their more expensive habit. Win-win!





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ckc

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  #1170859 7-Nov-2014 13:49
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SaltyNZ: Ah, I see you meant it in a different way to what I thought. I interpreted the question as 'Where were you when you nearly got blown up?'


Yeah, it's... terror, the operative part of it. It's not so much the actual getting blown up, but the idea that your community is going to be silently targeted by shadowy figures that are difficult to control. That is, of course, the desired outcome.

robcreid
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  #1170897 7-Nov-2014 14:40
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So back on the original topic is anyone able to provide a TLDR of what was in the 3rd degree piece, I'm afraid I missed it.

SaltyNZ
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  #1170998 7-Nov-2014 16:45
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It's ok, we can all stop worrying now: ISIS is running out of steam.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/trending/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503539&objectid=11354710




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Stu

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  #1171013 7-Nov-2014 17:11
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.....and oil.




Keep calm, and carry on posting.


MikeSkyrme
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  #1171052 7-Nov-2014 18:10
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plambrechtsen:
SaltyNZ:
MikeSkyrme:
I'm going to assume that people also said the same when the national road toll was 'only' one per year.

Things change.


Yes, they do. But in the face of the far greater threat of the road toll, we didn't ban cars. We didn't force everyone to keep detailed logs of their trips... We thought about it, debated it publicly, and came up with a bunch of solutions that everyone is OK to live with, that are set out in public, and enforced in public, with a public right of appeal for those who believe they have been dealt with unfairly.


And drink driving is still unbelievably high. Yet lowering the blood alcohol limit and raising the drinking age is something that is debated over years.

The number of beheadings Saudi has done this year I'm sure ISIS haven't even come close to it yet where is the outcry? Calls to no longer fund them by no longer buying their oil?


Actually, drink driving is battled against in a manner that catches every road user (yes, I'm certain you will find a list of people who have never been stopped), by way of booze buses/breath testing checkpoints.

Speeding also is monitored indiscriminately by way of speed cameras.

Rather simplified I know, but this is essentially the same as the monitoring of communications is it not? For all three scenarios, I only see a problem if you have been doing something you shouldn't be doing.....






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jarledb
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  #1171054 7-Nov-2014 18:17
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MikeSkyrme: 
Actually, drink driving is battled against in a manner that catches every road user (yes, I'm certain you will find a list of people who have never been stopped), by way of booze buses/breath testing checkpoints.

Speeding also is monitored indiscriminately by way of speed cameras.

Rather simplified I know, but this is essentially the same as the monitoring of communications is it not? For all three scenarios, I only see a problem if you have been doing something you shouldn't be doing.....


For the road its more like having a system in your car that automatically sends information about your speed and location to the authorities, so that they can know where you are and if you are breaking the speed limit at any time.

Dratsab
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  #1171059 7-Nov-2014 18:26
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gzt:
SaltyNZ: Apparently there are about 80 kiwis under surveillance because they may be potential terrorists, according the the PM's speech yesterday. 80. And about half of them are only suspected of being loudmouths, as opposed to someone who is actually about to perform mayhem. According to Wikipedia, there were 934 Mongrel Mob members in prison in April 2013. So yeah... we definitely need to urgently review what civil rights we should suspend in order to deal with this imminent existential terrorist threat. We only need them to grow by more than an order of magnitude and they'll be roughly as annoying as a bikie gang.

Just a footnote here. That mob membership number is almost certainly wrong and more likely represents some kind of known (and assigned) association metric.

I'd say that number is probably about right. There are over 100 patched members in the Poriura area alone. Prospects, associates and supporters combined (the association metric you refer to) would easily number a few hundred more.*

Edit: *in that area.

SaltyNZ
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  #1171060 7-Nov-2014 18:27
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MikeSkyrme: 
Actually, drink driving is battled against in a manner that catches every road user (yes, I'm certain you will find a list of people who have never been stopped), by way of booze buses/breath testing checkpoints.



Which is actually rather a good example: random breath testing (in conjunction with other measures) seems to have been quite effective in reducing drink driving. This represents a fair trade off between our right to not be pulled over randomly, and public safety.

The number of terrorist attacks shown to have been stopped by indiscriminate surveillance is ... almost 1.




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