Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | ... | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27
heylinb4nz
659 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user


  #1200570 19-Dec-2014 14:01
Send private message

MrJonathanNZ:
Geektastic:
freitasm:
And for every fanatical who draws attention to himself there will be ones who don't. After Sydney it appears the known ones are equally as dangerous.


The ones that don't are probably using burner phones, in person meetings etc anyway. The terrorist events of late (Sydney, Boston etc) were not cases of targets not being able to be identified by other means, but the failure of intelligence and security agencies to appropriately respond to a threat. Why on earth would we give these incompetent agencies even more power, when they can't even get it right when it's staring them in the face?



So true. Both Boston and Sydney perpetrators have been flagged before and both were let go by the authorities who had ALREADY everything they needed to get a warrant and keep them locked up or under surveillance.

New laws won't make this easier. New laws will not automatically upgrade the slow brains behind implementation.



The problem is society is very wet.

If we lock up bad people as a pre-emptive measure, they suddenly take advantage of the rights the democracy that they despise has given them so that we end up releasing them...!


You can't use pre-emptive and democracy in the same sentence when it pertains to law.
In a democratic society every person is innocent until proven guilty, using pre-emptive detention means that someone is guilty before their innocence can be proven by court of law.
To lock someone up for something they "might" do is highly undemocratic.


FYI: Locking someone up doesn't necessarily mean bars, you can easily make someone life uncomfortable (using undemocratic means).


As for innocent until proven guilty in many cases this is defined by the innocent person having to spend his money to defend charges, while the crown has a near unlimited purse by comparison to charge you in order to set precedence and thus case law to further whatever agenda they are trying to fulfil.






MikeB4
15552 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  #1200587 19-Dec-2014 14:32
Send private message

MrJonathanNZ:
Geektastic:
freitasm:
And for every fanatical who draws attention to himself there will be ones who don't. After Sydney it appears the known ones are equally as dangerous.


The ones that don't are probably using burner phones, in person meetings etc anyway. The terrorist events of late (Sydney, Boston etc) were not cases of targets not being able to be identified by other means, but the failure of intelligence and security agencies to appropriately respond to a threat. Why on earth would we give these incompetent agencies even more power, when they can't even get it right when it's staring them in the face?



So true. Both Boston and Sydney perpetrators have been flagged before and both were let go by the authorities who had ALREADY everything they needed to get a warrant and keep them locked up or under surveillance.

New laws won't make this easier. New laws will not automatically upgrade the slow brains behind implementation.



The problem is society is very wet.

If we lock up bad people as a pre-emptive measure, they suddenly take advantage of the rights the democracy that they despise has given them so that we end up releasing them...!


You can't use pre-emptive and democracy in the same sentence when it pertains to law.
In a democratic society every person is innocent until proven guilty, using pre-emptive detention means that someone is guilty before their innocence can be proven by court of law.
To lock someone up for something they "might" do is highly undemocratic.


No entirely correct, a person can be detained on suspicion or can be jailed for conspiracy to commit.

 
 
 
 


SaltyNZ

5480 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #1200663 19-Dec-2014 16:53
Send private message

shk292: 
Now I'm going to ask the "so what?" question.  So, I'm flagged as a potential terrorist because I'm discussing blowing up a base.  I'm surveilled and it turns out I'm discussing BF4 strategies. 


But they don't figure that out until they bust your door down, shoot your dog, and hold you on your knees at gunpoint while they steal all your computers and related stuff, because their algorithm gave them 99% certainty you were a terrorist. Sorry about that, no harm done!




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


MikeB4
15552 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  #1200664 19-Dec-2014 16:56
Send private message

SaltyNZ:
shk292: 
Now I'm going to ask the "so what?" question.  So, I'm flagged as a potential terrorist because I'm discussing blowing up a base.  I'm surveilled and it turns out I'm discussing BF4 strategies. 


But they don't figure that out until they bust your door down, shoot your dog, and hold you on your knees at gunpoint while they steal all your computers and related stuff, because their algorithm gave them 99% certainty you were a terrorist. Sorry about that, no harm done!


you forgot something, there would be excessive messing of ones underwear :P

SaltyNZ

5480 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #1200669 19-Dec-2014 17:04
Send private message

KiwiNZ:
SaltyNZ:
shk292: 
Now I'm going to ask the "so what?" question.  So, I'm flagged as a potential terrorist because I'm discussing blowing up a base.  I'm surveilled and it turns out I'm discussing BF4 strategies. 


But they don't figure that out until they bust your door down, shoot your dog, and hold you on your knees at gunpoint while they steal all your computers and related stuff, because their algorithm gave them 99% certainty you were a terrorist. Sorry about that, no harm done!


you forgot something, there would be excessive messing of ones underwear :P


Not me man, extensive internet gaming experience, etc. I'm hard core.




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


shk292
1977 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #1200673 19-Dec-2014 17:11
Send private message

SaltyNZ:
shk292: 
Now I'm going to ask the "so what?" question.  So, I'm flagged as a potential terrorist because I'm discussing blowing up a base.  I'm surveilled and it turns out I'm discussing BF4 strategies. 


But they don't figure that out until they bust your door down, shoot your dog, and hold you on your knees at gunpoint while they steal all your computers and related stuff, because their algorithm gave them 99% certainty you were a terrorist. Sorry about that, no harm done!

Yep, that happens all the time in NZ. A real worry

SaltyNZ

5480 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #1200690 19-Dec-2014 17:26
Send private message

shk292:
SaltyNZ:
shk292: 
Now I'm going to ask the "so what?" question.  So, I'm flagged as a potential terrorist because I'm discussing blowing up a base.  I'm surveilled and it turns out I'm discussing BF4 strategies. 


But they don't figure that out until they bust your door down, shoot your dog, and hold you on your knees at gunpoint while they steal all your computers and related stuff, because their algorithm gave them 99% certainty you were a terrorist. Sorry about that, no harm done!

Yep, that happens all the time in NZ. A real worry


You're right. It doesn't happen here. It doesn't happen here because our law enforcement people use their heads, and because they generally prefer to de-escalate the situation rather than go in guns blazing. But once we start outsourcing to computers... Tell me you haven't had a head-banging-on-wall argument with some numbnuts who insists they can't do the sensible thing because the computer says otherwise. Now give that numbnuts a gun and an urgent directive to go shoot you before you blow someone up.




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


 
 
 
 


shk292
1977 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #1200693 19-Dec-2014 17:34
Send private message

SaltyNZ:
shk292:
SaltyNZ:
shk292: 
Now I'm going to ask the "so what?" question.  So, I'm flagged as a potential terrorist because I'm discussing blowing up a base.  I'm surveilled and it turns out I'm discussing BF4 strategies. 


But they don't figure that out until they bust your door down, shoot your dog, and hold you on your knees at gunpoint while they steal all your computers and related stuff, because their algorithm gave them 99% certainty you were a terrorist. Sorry about that, no harm done!

Yep, that happens all the time in NZ. A real worry


You're right. It doesn't happen here. It doesn't happen here because our law enforcement people use their heads, and because they generally prefer to de-escalate the situation rather than go in guns blazing. But once we start outsourcing to computers... Tell me you haven't had a head-banging-on-wall argument with some numbnuts who insists they can't do the sensible thing because the computer says otherwise. Now give that numbnuts a gun and an urgent directive to go shoot you before you blow someone up.

I know what you mean but i think you're stretching a long bow to link the recent law changes to a hypothetical raid like you've described. I'm not a big believer in the "slippery slope" arguments that are so often trotted out in debates like this

SaltyNZ

5480 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #1200694 19-Dec-2014 17:42
Send private message

shk292:
I know what you mean but i think you're stretching a long bow to link the recent law changes to a hypothetical raid like you've described. I'm not a big believer in the "slippery slope" arguments that are so often trotted out in debates like this


I would be very happy to be wrong!




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


gzt

gzt
11677 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #1201035 20-Dec-2014 12:46
Send private message

shk292:
SaltyNZ:
shk292: 
Now I'm going to ask the "so what?" question.  So, I'm flagged as a potential terrorist because I'm discussing blowing up a base.  I'm surveilled and it turns out I'm discussing BF4 strategies. 


But they don't figure that out until they bust your door down, shoot your dog, and hold you on your knees at gunpoint while they steal all your computers and related stuff, because their algorithm gave them 99% certainty you were a terrorist. Sorry about that, no harm done!

Yep, that happens all the time in NZ. A real worry

Well at the very least there was serious overkill at least once and that was under already existing laws.

bigal_nz
635 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user


  #1203139 24-Dec-2014 12:22
Send private message

Looks like maybe those surveillance laws do have results:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11378771

Oh and a another radical person a little closer to home:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11375502

How many examples do some of the people in this thread need that people who want to conduct violence based on radical ideological views ARE in this part of the world. Some are known publically, some arent so public but they are equally dangerous.

Wanna get a computer to scan metadata (cause it aint done by hand lol) so that ajobbins mother doesnt die at the hands of a terrorist? Go for it.

Wanna stop radical kiwis going oversea so they dont join group that treats women as slaves with some new passport law? Go for it.




Rikkitic
Awrrr
12948 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #1203142 24-Dec-2014 12:35
Send private message

Wanna live in a world without privacy or civil rights? Go for it!




I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


ajobbins
Awesome
4891 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Subscriber

  #1203144 24-Dec-2014 12:44
Send private message

bigal_nz: How many examples do some of the people in this thread need that people who want to conduct violence based on radical ideological views ARE in this part of the world. Some are known publically, some arent so public but they are equally dangerous.


Firstly. I have said a number of times in this thread (tho it's convenient to your argument to ignore it) NO ONE IS SAYING NO SPYING LAWS. What I have been saying is that a) Our current spying laws are sufficient and b) The proposed new laws infringe far too much on liberties will absolutly no guarantee of results and little protection agains't abuse.

Please stop pretending I am advocating for the abolition of all surveillance.

Secondly. Australia DOES NOT HAVE MASS SPYING (right now). All the article you linked to proves is that the current laws are sufficient.

Wanna get a computer to scan metadata (cause it aint done by hand lol) so that ajobbins mother doesnt die at the hands of a terrorist? Go for it.


Scanning everyone's metadata is unlikely to protect my mother or yours any more from a terrorist. This is just common sense. What we do need is our intelligence agencies to actually use the tools and information at their disposal appropriately. 

If we ever get to a point where a) Our intelligence agencies are competent enough to identify and stop threats using the tools and information at their disposal today AND b) we start missing threats that COULD have been identified by mass spying, then we can talk about such a law. Neither of those are the case today. HOWEVER - given the power of such information, I would only be comfortable with such laws if the circumstances above are met AND there is far more oversight and protection of the data that has currently been proposed, including rock solid provisions for the way the data is allowed to be access and used, and extremely severe penalties for abuse or misuse of the information, especially by politicians. 

Wanna stop radical kiwis going oversea so they dont join group that treats women as slaves with some new passport law? Go for it.


I don't think appropriate travel restrictions for identified threats are unreasonable.




Twitter: ajobbins


freitasm
BDFL - Memuneh
68838 posts

Uber Geek

Administrator
Trusted
Geekzone
Lifetime subscriber

  #1203150 24-Dec-2014 13:04
Send private message

bigal_nz: Looks like maybe those surveillance laws do have results:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11378771

Oh and a another radical person a little closer to home:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11375502

How many examples do some of the people in this thread need that people who want to conduct violence based on radical ideological views ARE in this part of the world. Some are known publically, some arent so public but they are equally dangerous.


How many times we need to repeat: there is no need for laws to spy on EVERYONE ALL THE TIME?

We already have laws that allow targeted surveillance, with warrants. All those examples you give do not reinforce the needs for country-wide surveillance without warrants. It just shows what you can do with existing laws already.

bigal_nz: Wanna get a computer to scan metadata (cause it aint done by hand lol) so that ajobbins mother doesnt die at the hands of a terrorist? Go for it.


This is uncalled for. You don't have to add anyone's mother to the discussion. You don't have to be personal at all.

You get a week suspension here now.






 

 

These links are referral codes

 

Geekzone broadband switch | Eletcricity comparison and switch | Hatch investment (NZ$ 10 bonus if NZ$100 deposited within 30 days) | Sharesies | Mighty Ape | Backblaze | Coinbase | TheMarket | My technology disclosure


MikeB4
15552 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  #1203153 24-Dec-2014 13:10
Send private message

freitasm:
bigal_nz: Looks like maybe those surveillance laws do have results:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11378771

Oh and a another radical person a little closer to home:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11375502

How many examples do some of the people in this thread need that people who want to conduct violence based on radical ideological views ARE in this part of the world. Some are known publically, some arent so public but they are equally dangerous.


How many times we need to repeat: there is no need for laws to spy on EVERYONE ALL THE TIME?

We already have laws that allow targeted surveillance, with warrants. All those examples you give do not reinforce the needs for country-wide surveillance without warrants. It just shows what you can do with existing laws already.

bigal_nz: Wanna get a computer to scan metadata (cause it aint done by hand lol) so that ajobbins mother doesnt die at the hands of a terrorist? Go for it.


This is uncalled for. You don't have to add anyone's mother to the discussion. You don't have to be personal at all.

You get a week suspension here now.




Court warrants work for those they know about, what about those they do, how do they detect them? when a bomb goes off or a siege is underway? 

1 | ... | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic





News »

Vodafone enables 5G roaming - for when international travel comes
Posted 30-Oct-2020 15:03


Spark awards funding to Kiwi businesses in 5G funding initiative
Posted 30-Oct-2020 14:58


Huawei launches IdeaHub Pro in New Zealand
Posted 27-Oct-2020 16:41


Southland-based IT specialist providing virtual services worldwide
Posted 27-Oct-2020 15:55


NASA discovers water on sunlit surface of Moon
Posted 27-Oct-2020 08:30


Huawei introduces new features to Petal Search, Maps and Docs
Posted 26-Oct-2020 18:05


Nokia selected by NASA to build first ever cellular network on the Moon
Posted 21-Oct-2020 08:34


Nanoleaf enhances lighting line with launch of Triangles and Mini Triangles
Posted 17-Oct-2020 20:18


Synology unveils DS16211+
Posted 17-Oct-2020 20:12


Ingram Micro introduces FootfallCam to New Zealand channel
Posted 17-Oct-2020 20:06


Dropbox adopts Virtual First working policy
Posted 17-Oct-2020 19:47


OPPO announces Reno4 Series 5G line-up in NZ
Posted 16-Oct-2020 08:52


Microsoft Highway to a Hundred expands to Asia Pacific
Posted 14-Oct-2020 09:34


Spark turns on 5G in Auckland
Posted 14-Oct-2020 09:29


AMD Launches AMD Ryzen 5000 Series Desktop Processors
Posted 9-Oct-2020 10:13









Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.