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ajobbins
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  #1203164 24-Dec-2014 13:18
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KiwiNZ: Court warrants work for those they know about, what about those they do, how do they detect them? when a bomb goes off or a siege is underway? 


A) What makes you think mass spying will actually identify any terrorists? With such volumes of information, how do you accurately identify them? And why isn't the government proposing appropriate protections for the information and punishments for misuse. If their intentions are truly to identify terrorists, this shouldn't be a problem.

B) If we can't get it right for the ones they are able to easily identify now yet go on to commit horrendous crimes, what makes you think the intelligence agencies will be any better at acting on other information?




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MikeB4
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  #1203170 24-Dec-2014 13:21
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ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: Court warrants work for those they know about, what about those they do, how do they detect them? when a bomb goes off or a siege is underway? 


A) What makes you think mass spying will actually identify any terrorists? With such volumes of information, how do you accurately identify them? And why isn't the government proposing appropriate protections for the information and punishments for misuse. If their intentions are truly to identify terrorists, this shouldn't be a problem.

B) If we can't get it right for the ones they are able to easily identify now yet go on to commit horrendous crimes, what makes you think the intelligence agencies will be any better at acting on other information?


You answered the need yourself , The reason Governments are seeking and implementing stronger measures and more detection methods and system is because the current restricted is not working as it should.

 
 
 
 


freitasm
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  #1203177 24-Dec-2014 13:26
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KiwiNZ:
freitasm: How many times we need to repeat: there is no need for laws to spy on EVERYONE ALL THE TIME?

We already have laws that allow targeted surveillance, with warrants. All those examples you give do not reinforce the needs for country-wide surveillance without warrants. It just shows what you can do with existing laws already.


Court warrants work for those they know about, what about those they do, how do they detect them? when a bomb goes off or a siege is underway? 


The same way is we do it now: by warrant surveillance of those we already know about, and pieceing together relationships to new cells from these folks.

There were lots of warning signals before Boston. There we warning signals before Sydney. Intelligence and security agencies failed at preventing those acts. 

This week was revealed that there were lots of intelligence signals before the Mumbai attacks in 2008 but people failed to make sense of that or to act in time.

What tells you that surveillance of everyone all the time will enable security and intelligence of organisations to perform better?





 

 

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MikeB4
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  #1203186 24-Dec-2014 13:31
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Because doing little gives you only the chance to achieve little. I am prepared and trust our government to do what it deems right to protect our people. And 99 percent of the population will see no affect or change to their lives.

freitasm
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  #1203190 24-Dec-2014 13:34
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KiwiNZ: Because doing little gives you only the chance to achieve little. I am prepared and trust our government to do what it deems right to protect our people. And 99 percent of the population will see no affect or change to their lives.


Here is the thing: a lot of people don't trust The Government for different reasons. In my case I don't trust a government to be competent enough with data collected about myself or anyone else, to secure it in a way that it cannot be used for anything else by anyone else.

And please don't confuse patriotism with government support - these are very different things.







 

 

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MikeB4
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  #1203193 24-Dec-2014 13:37
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freitasm:
KiwiNZ: Because doing little gives you only the chance to achieve little. I am prepared and trust our government to do what it deems right to protect our people. And 99 percent of the population will see no affect or change to their lives.


Here is the thing: a lot of people don't trust The Government for different reasons. In my case I don't trust a government to be competent enough with data collected about myself or anyone else, to secure it in a way that it cannot be used for anything else by anyone else.

And please don't confuse patriotism with government support - these are very different things.





I trust our Government despite the FUD that is often pontificated by the likes of Hager, Dotcom etc etc etc. 

ajobbins
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  #1203200 24-Dec-2014 13:49
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KiwiNZ: You answered the need yourself , The reason Governments are seeking and implementing stronger measures and more detection methods and system is because the current restricted is not working as it should.


Mass spying is about identification (or at least that's what they are saying it's about.

The problem they have at the moment with identification is not the lack of information, it's that they aren't doing a good job of interpreting it.

Giving them masses more information isn't going to make them any better at interpreting it.




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Rikkitic
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  #1203205 24-Dec-2014 13:53
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freitasm:
KiwiNZ: Because doing little gives you only the chance to achieve little. I am prepared and trust our government to do what it deems right to protect our people. And 99 percent of the population will see no affect or change to their lives.


Here is the thing: a lot of people don't trust The Government for different reasons. In my case I don't trust a government to be competent enough with data collected about myself or anyone else, to secure it in a way that it cannot be used for anything else by anyone else.

And please don't confuse patriotism with government support - these are very different things.





Exactly. This perfectly describes my own lack of trust. Wherever we are allowed to see government bureacracy in action, what we see usually does not inspire confidence.






I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


SaltyNZ

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  #1203232 24-Dec-2014 14:04
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Rikkitic:
freitasm:
KiwiNZ: Because doing little gives you only the chance to achieve little. I am prepared and trust our government to do what it deems right to protect our people. And 99 percent of the population will see no affect or change to their lives.


Here is the thing: a lot of people don't trust The Government for different reasons. In my case I don't trust a government to be competent enough with data collected about myself or anyone else, to secure it in a way that it cannot be used for anything else by anyone else.

And please don't confuse patriotism with government support - these are very different things.





Exactly. This perfectly describes my own lack of trust. Wherever we are allowed to see government bureacracy in action, what we see usually does not inspire confidence.




And most of the time it's not some secret conspiracy... It's the fact that they're just incompetent.




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


MikeB4
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  #1203257 24-Dec-2014 14:48
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ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: You answered the need yourself , The reason Governments are seeking and implementing stronger measures and more detection methods and system is because the current restricted is not working as it should.


Mass spying is about identification (or at least that's what they are saying it's about.

The problem they have at the moment with identification is not the lack of information, it's that they aren't doing a good job of interpreting it.

Giving them masses more information isn't going to make them any better at interpreting it.


You know this for sure? If so how?

ajobbins
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  #1203264 24-Dec-2014 14:57
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KiwiNZ: You know this for sure? If so how?


And you know it will work for sure? how?

That's a lot of rights to give up for a gamble. 

The current NZ government have already shown they are willing to use the SIS for political purposes, yet we have no examples of terrorism that were missed because of a lack of mass spying. Anywhere. Worldwide.

On balance.....I have far more to fear from the government's use of the laws that the small chance they may prevent some terrorism.

Giving your blind 'trust' to a politician or political party without the appropriate limits, check, balances to act responsibly to these laws is incredibly naive no matter what your political persuasion.




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rhy7s
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  #1203266 24-Dec-2014 15:06
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KiwiNZ: ...And 99 percent of the population will see no affect or change to their lives.

So you're OK with about 45,000 people (in what time frame?) being inconvenienced to whatever degree being pinpointed as a terrorist entails?

MikeB4
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  #1203269 24-Dec-2014 15:11
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ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: You know this for sure? If so how?


And you know it will work for sure? how?

That's a lot of rights to give up for a gamble. 

The current NZ government have already shown they are willing to use the SIS for political purposes, yet we have no examples of terrorism that were missed because of a lack of mass spying. Anywhere. Worldwide.

On balance.....I have far more to fear from the government's use of the laws that the small chance they may prevent some terrorism.

Giving your blind 'trust' to a politician or political party without the appropriate limits, check, balances to act responsibly to these laws is incredibly naive no matter what your political persuasion.


So you don't really know you are dealing in FUD and Government employee bashing.

rhy7s
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  #1203273 24-Dec-2014 15:19
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KiwiNZ:

I trust our Government despite the FUD that is often pontificated by the likes of Hager, Dotcom etc etc etc. 


Do you trust the process? Or the people? If the people, would you trust the procedures if they were followed by people you didn't trust?

A few things to consider from the past here (Hubertus Knabe on TED).

MikeB4
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  #1203277 24-Dec-2014 15:25
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rhy7s:
KiwiNZ:

I trust our Government despite the FUD that is often pontificated by the likes of Hager, Dotcom etc etc etc. 


Do you trust the process? Or the people? If the people, would you trust the procedures if they were followed by people you didn't trust?

A few things to consider from the past here (Hubertus Knabe on TED).


I trust the people and the process. As for your link, you do know we live in New Zealand right?

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