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MikeB4
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  #1182800 25-Nov-2014 13:42
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ajobbins: In my unprofessional opinion, anyone who thinks that mass surveillance is the cure for terrorism or will protect you from it is deluded. 


It's not the cure it's a tool. 

shk292
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  #1182821 25-Nov-2014 14:28
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KiwiNZ:
SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ: 

yep, we have no way to stop any aircraft, we have very limited ability to move our Armed forces around NZ, We have limited maritime detection.


We should get a few of these to go with the Orions.


The world has changed since Aunty Helen had a hissy fit with the RNZAF and I believe it is time we reinvested a limited air cover ability which includes more maritime patrol Aircraft and Fighter Wing. We also need to provide the Army with more Transport ability and a protected APC


All very well wanting that stuff (and I agree with you), but you need to spend the money if you really want it.  We have one of the lowest Defence budgets as a % of GDP in the OECD, one of the lowest GDPs, and one of the largest sea and air spaces to patrol.  We also have an opposition party that can't govern without the support of the Greens, who have already said they want to remove what little combat capability our defence force currently has.  You'd need to at least double the current budget to deliver a credible caability in the areas you want

 
 
 
 


MikeB4
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  #1182826 25-Nov-2014 14:34
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shk292:
KiwiNZ:
SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ: 

yep, we have no way to stop any aircraft, we have very limited ability to move our Armed forces around NZ, We have limited maritime detection.


We should get a few of these to go with the Orions.


The world has changed since Aunty Helen had a hissy fit with the RNZAF and I believe it is time we reinvested a limited air cover ability which includes more maritime patrol Aircraft and Fighter Wing. We also need to provide the Army with more Transport ability and a protected APC


All very well wanting that stuff (and I agree with you), but you need to spend the money if you really want it.  We have one of the lowest Defence budgets as a % of GDP in the OECD, one of the lowest GDPs, and one of the largest sea and air spaces to patrol.  We also have an opposition party that can't govern without the support of the Greens, who have already said they want to remove what little combat capability our defence force currently has.  You'd need to at least double the current budget to deliver a credible caability in the areas you want


We should be spending a lot more on Defence, from someone who actually knows our Service people get deployed woefully equipped. Also why would anyone risk helping us if we are unprepared to help ourselves.

NZ is currently spending 1.3% of GDP on Defence we should be spending at least 2.5%-3% 

shk292
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  #1182829 25-Nov-2014 14:43
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KiwiNZ:
shk292:
KiwiNZ:
SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ: 

yep, we have no way to stop any aircraft, we have very limited ability to move our Armed forces around NZ, We have limited maritime detection.


We should get a few of these to go with the Orions.


The world has changed since Aunty Helen had a hissy fit with the RNZAF and I believe it is time we reinvested a limited air cover ability which includes more maritime patrol Aircraft and Fighter Wing. We also need to provide the Army with more Transport ability and a protected APC


All very well wanting that stuff (and I agree with you), but you need to spend the money if you really want it.  We have one of the lowest Defence budgets as a % of GDP in the OECD, one of the lowest GDPs, and one of the largest sea and air spaces to patrol.  We also have an opposition party that can't govern without the support of the Greens, who have already said they want to remove what little combat capability our defence force currently has.  You'd need to at least double the current budget to deliver a credible caability in the areas you want


We should be spending a lot more on Defence, from someone who actually knows our Service people get deployed woefully equipped. Also why would anyone risk helping us if we are unprepared to help ourselves.

NZ is currently spending 1.3% of GDP on Defence we should be spending at least 2.5%-3% 


It's actually between just below 1% and 1.13%, depending on your source.  1.3% would be a start; 2.5-3 would be good

I'd also rephrase your last sentence: why would anyone risk helping us if we are unprepared to help others.  I don't think we can sit here at the bottom of the world, ignoring all the bad stuff that happens, then expect the cavalry to come riding over the horizon to help us if bad stuff happens here.  That's why we need to do our share in places like Afghanistan and off the coast of Africa

MikeB4
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  #1182840 25-Nov-2014 14:49
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We do help others now, reference deployments in East Timor, Afghanistan, etc etc but we need a better self defence capability. 

ajobbins
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  #1182906 25-Nov-2014 17:03
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KiwiNZ:
ajobbins: In my unprofessional opinion, anyone who thinks that mass surveillance is the cure for terrorism or will protect you from it is deluded. 


It's not the cure it's a tool. 


A horribly ineffective one, as the US have demonstrated. 

Not to mention the fact that the Prime Ministers Office has just been found to have used the SIS for politically motivated purposes, can you trust the government (of today or tomorrow) to use this power appropriately and only for the purposes they are selling it on?




Twitter: ajobbins


MikeB4
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  #1182913 25-Nov-2014 17:28
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ajobbins:
KiwiNZ:
ajobbins: In my unprofessional opinion, anyone who thinks that mass surveillance is the cure for terrorism or will protect you from it is deluded. 


It's not the cure it's a tool. 


A horribly ineffective one, as the US have demonstrated. 

Not to mention the fact that the Prime Ministers Office has just been found to have used the SIS for politically motivated purposes, can you trust the government (of today or tomorrow) to use this power appropriately and only for the purposes they are selling it on?



It's a a lot more effective than doing squat. I have taken the anti paranoia lollies as the review shows that we have nothing to worry about because of the fact there was a review thus oversight is present.

 
 
 
 


Ruphus
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  #1182919 25-Nov-2014 17:54
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KiwiNZ:
ajobbins:
KiwiNZ:
ajobbins: In my unprofessional opinion, anyone who thinks that mass surveillance is the cure for terrorism or will protect you from it is deluded. 


It's not the cure it's a tool. 


A horribly ineffective one, as the US have demonstrated. 

Not to mention the fact that the Prime Ministers Office has just been found to have used the SIS for politically motivated purposes, can you trust the government (of today or tomorrow) to use this power appropriately and only for the purposes they are selling it on?



It's a a lot more effective than doing squat. I have taken the anti paranoia lollies as the review shows that we have nothing to worry about because of the fact there was a review thus oversight is present.


So it takes a book to be written that points out some dodginess and declassification has gone on to trigger the review? I think it's not quite the oversight the public would like.

MikeB4
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  #1182922 25-Nov-2014 17:58
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Ruphus:
KiwiNZ:
ajobbins:
KiwiNZ:
ajobbins: In my unprofessional opinion, anyone who thinks that mass surveillance is the cure for terrorism or will protect you from it is deluded. 


It's not the cure it's a tool. 


A horribly ineffective one, as the US have demonstrated. 

Not to mention the fact that the Prime Ministers Office has just been found to have used the SIS for politically motivated purposes, can you trust the government (of today or tomorrow) to use this power appropriately and only for the purposes they are selling it on?



It's a a lot more effective than doing squat. I have taken the anti paranoia lollies as the review shows that we have nothing to worry about because of the fact there was a review thus oversight is present.


So it takes a book to be written that points out some dodginess and declassification has gone on to trigger the review? I think it's not quite the oversight the public would like.


I think if a survey was done the vast majority of the public wouldn't give a toss about oversight or what some plonker wrote.

Geektastic
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  #1182938 25-Nov-2014 18:31
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KiwiNZ: We do help others now, reference deployments in East Timor, Afghanistan, etc etc but we need a better self defence capability. 


Personally I would merge all three services into a single force based on the US Coast Guard model and restrict operations to NZ waters and territories. Defence of NZ, fisheries protection, anti drugs action and SAR responsibilities.

There's little point in participating in any other overseas actions when you only have 3000 personnel in toto.





MikeB4
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  #1182943 25-Nov-2014 18:43
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Geektastic:
KiwiNZ: We do help others now, reference deployments in East Timor, Afghanistan, etc etc but we need a better self defence capability. 


Personally I would merge all three services into a single force based on the US Coast Guard model and restrict operations to NZ waters and territories. Defence of NZ, fisheries protection, anti drugs action and SAR responsibilities.

There's little point in participating in any other overseas actions when you only have 3000 personnel in toto.


I agree we don't need separate services. Many duplications could be removed with a single command structure.

shk292
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  #1182962 25-Nov-2014 19:20
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Geektastic:
KiwiNZ: We do help others now, reference deployments in East Timor, Afghanistan, etc etc but we need a better self defence capability. 


Personally I would merge all three services into a single force based on the US Coast Guard model and restrict operations to NZ waters and territories. Defence of NZ, fisheries protection, anti drugs action and SAR responsibilities.

There's little point in participating in any other overseas actions when you only have 3000 personnel in toto.

We will never have a strong enough military to defend ourselves against all potential aggressors.  We need alliances, and the way to cement those is to participate in and contribute to overseas actions that are morally right and aligned with our alliances.  It can also be argued that as a wealthy, free country it is our moral duty to contribute to global peacekeeping, anti-terrorism and prevention of human rights abuses - I'm not at all religious but the good Samaritan is an analogy.  It's not enough to narrow-mindedly attend to problems that are only evident within our borders

Geektastic
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  #1183031 25-Nov-2014 22:20
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shk292:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ: We do help others now, reference deployments in East Timor, Afghanistan, etc etc but we need a better self defence capability. 


Personally I would merge all three services into a single force based on the US Coast Guard model and restrict operations to NZ waters and territories. Defence of NZ, fisheries protection, anti drugs action and SAR responsibilities.

There's little point in participating in any other overseas actions when you only have 3000 personnel in toto.

We will never have a strong enough military to defend ourselves against all potential aggressors.  We need alliances, and the way to cement those is to participate in and contribute to overseas actions that are morally right and aligned with our alliances.  It can also be argued that as a wealthy, free country it is our moral duty to contribute to global peacekeeping, anti-terrorism and prevention of human rights abuses - I'm not at all religious but the good Samaritan is an analogy.  It's not enough to narrow-mindedly attend to problems that are only evident within our borders


What potential aggressors did you have in mind? I can only think of terrorists.

If anyone else is coming for us, the rest of the world is already up the creek and won't be worrying about a small island in the back of beyond....

Also I suspect the UK would assist regardless.





dickytim
2514 posts

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  #1183080 26-Nov-2014 07:07
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Geektastic:
shk292:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ: We do help others now, reference deployments in East Timor, Afghanistan, etc etc but we need a better self defence capability. 


Personally I would merge all three services into a single force based on the US Coast Guard model and restrict operations to NZ waters and territories. Defence of NZ, fisheries protection, anti drugs action and SAR responsibilities.

There's little point in participating in any other overseas actions when you only have 3000 personnel in toto.

We will never have a strong enough military to defend ourselves against all potential aggressors.  We need alliances, and the way to cement those is to participate in and contribute to overseas actions that are morally right and aligned with our alliances.  It can also be argued that as a wealthy, free country it is our moral duty to contribute to global peacekeeping, anti-terrorism and prevention of human rights abuses - I'm not at all religious but the good Samaritan is an analogy.  It's not enough to narrow-mindedly attend to problems that are only evident within our borders


What potential aggressors did you have in mind? I can only think of terrorists.

If anyone else is coming for us, the rest of the world is already up the creek and won't be worrying about a small island in the back of beyond....

Also I suspect the UK would assist regardless.


Zombies, the next attack will be Zombies.

SaltyNZ

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  #1183093 26-Nov-2014 07:41
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dickytim:

Zombies, the next attack will be Zombies.


People always laugh at me when I say that. Well, they won't be laughing when some shambling horror starts snacking on their juicy thigh, will they, eh!?




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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