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bigal_nz
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  #1197888 15-Dec-2014 16:13
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heylinb4nz:
DravidDavid: The whole hostage thing is obviously fake.  The terrorists have guns.  Guns are illegal in Australia, duh.  Where is Jack Bauer when you need him anyway? [/s]


Jack Bauer would save the day :)

Guns are controlled in Aussie..more so since Port Arthur but still like NZ it isn't to hard to obtain one through illegal channels and in some cases legal channels via illegal means.

I've made suggestions to Police HQ in NZ on trying to plug some of those loopholes...but they don't seem interested....apparently they have plenty of smart people in Wellington already working on it...LOL. To busy keeping tabs on licensed owners to worry about the fact you can obtain an AR15 with 30 round mags with no licence whatsoever.    


Duh! Police don't make laws - get it right.

Fred99
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  #1197889 15-Dec-2014 16:14
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networkn:
ajobbins:
heylinb4nz: 
Just as scary as terrorists are people who are willing to give wholesale sweeping powers to governments (and their agencies) without any question whatsoever..all in the name of a false sense of safety...wish people would look at the bigger picture...and you talk about other having their heads in the sand.


Exactly!


Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune. 

All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.



Perhaps we should base all future "anti-terror" laws on gut-feeling and outrageous assumptions made by those who feel the most vengeance, as you seem to be suggesting.

 
 
 
 


bigal_nz
635 posts

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  #1197892 15-Dec-2014 16:16
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heylinb4nz:
networkn:
ajobbins:
heylinb4nz: 
Just as scary as terrorists are people who are willing to give wholesale sweeping powers to governments (and their agencies) without any question whatsoever..all in the name of a false sense of safety...wish people would look at the bigger picture...and you talk about other having their heads in the sand.


Exactly!


Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune. 

All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.



Not really, i'm not sheeple, I don't entrust my safety to people who care less about me as a citizen and more about me for my lifetime tax paying ability. If anything id get pissy at the fact that they dont allow CCW permit for adequately trained civilians, if they did this whole drama may very well be over by now.


So you don't trust the government to allow strictly controlled search powers, but you think we should trust you with a concealed weapon carry permit?

Priceless.

ajobbins
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  #1197893 15-Dec-2014 16:17
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 networkn: Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune. 

 

All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines. 


Please don't speculate on my behalf.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.


Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to throw away essential liberties (which you will NEVER get back) because they think it will provide them with some security (History shows it won't), without looking at the bigger picture and truly understanding all of the implications of such laws.




Twitter: ajobbins


MikeB4
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  #1197894 15-Dec-2014 16:17
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Fred99:
networkn:
ajobbins:
heylinb4nz: 
Just as scary as terrorists are people who are willing to give wholesale sweeping powers to governments (and their agencies) without any question whatsoever..all in the name of a false sense of safety...wish people would look at the bigger picture...and you talk about other having their heads in the sand.


Exactly!


Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune. 

All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.



Perhaps we should base all future "anti-terror" laws on gut-feeling and outrageous assumptions made by those who feel the most vengeance, as you seem to be suggesting.


I am happy to put it in the hands of those put in place to do so and whom have advice and briefings from trained professionals and not errrr Forum experts.

MikeB4
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  #1197895 15-Dec-2014 16:20
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ajobbins:
 networkn: Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune.  All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines. 


Please don't speculate on my behalf.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.


Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to throw away essential liberties (which you will NEVER get back) because they think it will provide them with some security (History shows it won't), without looking at the bigger picture and truly understanding all of the implications of such laws.


read some history, during WW2 the government was given wide powers and certain freedoms were curbed in order to deal with that emergency. Those measures were quickly removed when the emergency passed.

ubergeeknz
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  #1197896 15-Dec-2014 16:21
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networkn:
ajobbins:
heylinb4nz: 
Just as scary as terrorists are people who are willing to give wholesale sweeping powers to governments (and their agencies) without any question whatsoever..all in the name of a false sense of safety...wish people would look at the bigger picture...and you talk about other having their heads in the sand.


Exactly!


Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune. 

All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.


When in fact, the reason many intelligent and rational people don't support mass surveillance in the name of reducing terrorism, is because there is absolutely no evidence that mass surveillance programs do anything to prevent or reduce the incidence of terrorism.  Yet there is much evidence that such provisions are readily abused by those in a position of power.

 
 
 
 


bigal_nz
635 posts

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  #1197897 15-Dec-2014 16:22
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ajobbins:
 networkn: Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune.  All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines. 


Please don't speculate on my behalf.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.


Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to throw away essential liberties (which you will NEVER get back) because they think it will provide them with some security (History shows it won't), without looking at the bigger picture and truly understanding all of the implications of such laws.


Your right. Lets make it really hard for those trying to protect us. Clearly they don't need any help and could do it blind folded.

All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket.



ubergeeknz
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  #1197898 15-Dec-2014 16:24
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bigal_nz: All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket. 


And seeing as they apparently knew nothing more than "something is going to happen" - explain how it has been helpful?

Hammerer
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  #1197901 15-Dec-2014 16:24
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ajobbins:

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to throw away essential liberties (which you will NEVER get back) because they think it will provide them with some security (History shows it won't), without looking at the bigger picture and truly understanding all of the implications of such laws.


Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to believe that liberty lost can "NEVER" be reimplemented. The "never" argument is one of the less interesting rhetorical devices but the evidence of evnts in my lifetime show that many countries have managed to restore some if not all "essential liberties" e.g. most of the Cold War communist bloc.

ajobbins
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  #1197903 15-Dec-2014 16:25
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bigal_nz:

Your right. Lets make it really hard for those trying to protect us. Clearly they don't need any help and could do it blind folded.

All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket.


No one is saying that no spying/surveillance/intelligence gathering should take place. The point is, that mass surveillance is an unnecessary intrusion of the privacy of all citizens, and evidence should does little or nothing to stop terrorism over and above the legacy surveillance laws.




Twitter: ajobbins


heylinb4nz
659 posts

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  #1197908 15-Dec-2014 16:27
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bigal_nz:
heylinb4nz:
DravidDavid: The whole hostage thing is obviously fake.  The terrorists have guns.  Guns are illegal in Australia, duh.  Where is Jack Bauer when you need him anyway? [/s]


Jack Bauer would save the day :)

Guns are controlled in Aussie..more so since Port Arthur but still like NZ it isn't to hard to obtain one through illegal channels and in some cases legal channels via illegal means.

I've made suggestions to Police HQ in NZ on trying to plug some of those loopholes...but they don't seem interested....apparently they have plenty of smart people in Wellington already working on it...LOL. To busy keeping tabs on licensed owners to worry about the fact you can obtain an AR15 with 30 round mags with no licence whatsoever.    


Duh! Police don't make laws - get it right.


No they make policy and try to sell it to the sheeple as law. At the end of the day politicians are muppets and will put though anything that the police want to make into law.

SaltyNZ

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  #1197909 15-Dec-2014 16:28
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Hammerer: e.g. most of the Cold War communist bloc.


Are you seriously trying to use the collapse of communism as an example of why it's ok to give up your liberties, because 'See, these people got them back!'?




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


MikeB4
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  #1197910 15-Dec-2014 16:28
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ajobbins:
bigal_nz:

Your right. Lets make it really hard for those trying to protect us. Clearly they don't need any help and could do it blind folded.

All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket.


No one is saying that no spying/surveillance/intelligence gathering should take place. The point is, that mass surveillance is an unnecessary intrusion of the privacy of all citizens, and evidence should does little or nothing to stop terrorism over and above the legacy surveillance laws.


Of course they look up the White pages to get the phone numbers of the terrorists so they can bug their phones. And the police check the electoral role for those with  employment noted as terrorist so they can pop around for chat 

bigal_nz
635 posts

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  #1197911 15-Dec-2014 16:29
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ubergeeknz:
bigal_nz: All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket. 


And seeing as they apparently knew nothing more than "something is going to happen" - explain how it has been helpful?


Wasn't quite a few people arrested some months back......



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