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ajobbins
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  #1197912 15-Dec-2014 16:29
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Hammerer:
ajobbins:

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to throw away essential liberties (which you will NEVER get back) because they think it will provide them with some security (History shows it won't), without looking at the bigger picture and truly understanding all of the implications of such laws.


Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to believe that liberty lost can "NEVER" be reimplemented. The "never" argument is one of the less interesting rhetorical devices but the evidence of evnts in my lifetime show that many countries have managed to restore some if not all "essential liberties" e.g. most of the Cold War communist bloc.


Fair point, but in these cases I believe it will be far harder to get these liberties back. Governments all over are using the fear of terrorism to enact such laws and will continue to do so, regardless of whether they actually do anything about terrorism or not. As mentioned above, we're seeing no evidence of mass surveillance actually helping to stop terrorism, but plenty of examples of where it has been abused for other purposes. People trust the government to do what is best, but in reality (on a number of fronts), governments do what is best for them or what keeps them in power. Politicians are about as trust worthy as a drug addicted user car salesman - and more and more the power is falling to them.




Twitter: ajobbins


MikeB4
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  #1197913 15-Dec-2014 16:31
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ajobbins:
Hammerer:
ajobbins:

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to throw away essential liberties (which you will NEVER get back) because they think it will provide them with some security (History shows it won't), without looking at the bigger picture and truly understanding all of the implications of such laws.


Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to believe that liberty lost can "NEVER" be reimplemented. The "never" argument is one of the less interesting rhetorical devices but the evidence of evnts in my lifetime show that many countries have managed to restore some if not all "essential liberties" e.g. most of the Cold War communist bloc.


Fair point, but in these cases I believe it will be far harder to get these liberties back. Governments all over are using the fear of terrorism to enact such laws and will continue to do so, regardless of whether they actually do anything about terrorism or not. As mentioned above, we're seeing no evidence of mass surveillance actually helping to stop terrorism, but plenty of examples of where it has been abused for other purposes. People trust the government to do what is best, but in reality (on a number of fronts), governments do what is best for them or what keeps them in power. Politicians are about as trust worthy as a drug addicted user car salesman - and more and more the power is falling to them.


yet you vote for them??????????? you do know this is New Zealand? 

actually any further words fail me. 


 
 
 
 


bigal_nz
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  #1197914 15-Dec-2014 16:31
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heylinb4nz:
bigal_nz:
heylinb4nz:
DravidDavid: The whole hostage thing is obviously fake.  The terrorists have guns.  Guns are illegal in Australia, duh.  Where is Jack Bauer when you need him anyway? [/s]


Jack Bauer would save the day :)

Guns are controlled in Aussie..more so since Port Arthur but still like NZ it isn't to hard to obtain one through illegal channels and in some cases legal channels via illegal means.

I've made suggestions to Police HQ in NZ on trying to plug some of those loopholes...but they don't seem interested....apparently they have plenty of smart people in Wellington already working on it...LOL. To busy keeping tabs on licensed owners to worry about the fact you can obtain an AR15 with 30 round mags with no licence whatsoever.    


Duh! Police don't make laws - get it right.


No they make policy and try to sell it to the sheeple as law. At the end of the day politicians are muppets and will put though anything that the police want to make into law.


Policy which is masked as law? What? The law is plain to see online. The laws of the country are passed only after readings in parliament. Parliament is full of the people you voted for....or are you one of the ones who doesnt vote?

SaltyNZ

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  #1197918 15-Dec-2014 16:33
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ajobbins:
bigal_nz:

Your right. Lets make it really hard for those trying to protect us. Clearly they don't need any help and could do it blind folded.

All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket.


No one is saying that no spying/surveillance/intelligence gathering should take place. The point is, that mass surveillance is an unnecessary intrusion of the privacy of all citizens, and evidence should does little or nothing to stop terrorism over and above the legacy surveillance laws.


Precisely. Surveillance should be targeted, warranted, reported on, and completely transparent and public. 




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


networkn
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  #1197919 15-Dec-2014 16:34
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heylinb4nz:
networkn:
ajobbins:
heylinb4nz: 
Just as scary as terrorists are people who are willing to give wholesale sweeping powers to governments (and their agencies) without any question whatsoever..all in the name of a false sense of safety...wish people would look at the bigger picture...and you talk about other having their heads in the sand.


Exactly!


Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune. 

All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.



Not really, i'm not sheeple, I don't entrust my safety to people who care less about me as a citizen and more about me for my lifetime tax paying ability. If anything id get pissy at the fact that they dont allow CCW permit for adequately trained civilians, if they did this whole drama may very well be over by now.


So you have no loans, no credit cards, no mortgage, no form of financial documentation ? Do you have a drivers license? 

If you do, you are entrusting your safety and the privacy of your data to these same people or worse. 


heylinb4nz
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  #1197920 15-Dec-2014 16:35
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bigal_nz:
heylinb4nz:
networkn:
ajobbins:
heylinb4nz: 
Just as scary as terrorists are people who are willing to give wholesale sweeping powers to governments (and their agencies) without any question whatsoever..all in the name of a false sense of safety...wish people would look at the bigger picture...and you talk about other having their heads in the sand.


Exactly!


Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune. 

All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.



Not really, i'm not sheeple, I don't entrust my safety to people who care less about me as a citizen and more about me for my lifetime tax paying ability. If anything id get pissy at the fact that they dont allow CCW permit for adequately trained civilians, if they did this whole drama may very well be over by now.


So you don't trust the government to allow strictly controlled search powers, but you think we should trust you with a concealed weapon carry permit?

Priceless.


2 different things, one enables protection of yourself and others, ones takes away your rights and gives more un-necessary power to government. But let me entertain your statement

 


You trust a 20 year old police recruit fresh out training college to pick up a Glock 17 but you wouldn't trust a civilian with a higher level of training and more trigger time ?





bigal_nz
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  #1197922 15-Dec-2014 16:35
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SaltyNZ:
ajobbins:
bigal_nz:

Your right. Lets make it really hard for those trying to protect us. Clearly they don't need any help and could do it blind folded.

All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket.


No one is saying that no spying/surveillance/intelligence gathering should take place. The point is, that mass surveillance is an unnecessary intrusion of the privacy of all citizens, and evidence should does little or nothing to stop terrorism over and above the legacy surveillance laws.


Precisely. Surveillance should be targeted, warranted, reported on, and completely transparent and public. 


You want covert surveillance to be public? ROFL - so the people being spied on will know it? hahahaaa - nice logic - that would make spying very effective.

 
 
 
 


MikeB4
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  #1197923 15-Dec-2014 16:35
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SaltyNZ:
ajobbins:
bigal_nz:

Your right. Lets make it really hard for those trying to protect us. Clearly they don't need any help and could do it blind folded.

All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket.


No one is saying that no spying/surveillance/intelligence gathering should take place. The point is, that mass surveillance is an unnecessary intrusion of the privacy of all citizens, and evidence should does little or nothing to stop terrorism over and above the legacy surveillance laws.


Precisely. Surveillance should be targeted, warranted, reported on, and completely transparent and public. 


I get it now, they do look at the phone book and then have to publicly state who they are watching. Yeah that will work ?????? good grief 

SaltyNZ

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  #1197924 15-Dec-2014 16:36
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KiwiNZ: 
yet you vote for them??????????? you do know this is New Zealand? 

actually any further words fail me. 



I voted for the other ones. You know, the ones who didn't use the security intelligence services to score cheap political points. This is what politicians use surveillance powers for. You can tell, on account of that's what they used it for.




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


MikeB4
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  #1197925 15-Dec-2014 16:37
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I think there is pseudo naivety trolling happening in this thread  

heylinb4nz
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  #1197927 15-Dec-2014 16:39
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bigal_nz:
heylinb4nz:
bigal_nz:
heylinb4nz:
DravidDavid: The whole hostage thing is obviously fake.  The terrorists have guns.  Guns are illegal in Australia, duh.  Where is Jack Bauer when you need him anyway? [/s]


Jack Bauer would save the day :)

Guns are controlled in Aussie..more so since Port Arthur but still like NZ it isn't to hard to obtain one through illegal channels and in some cases legal channels via illegal means.

I've made suggestions to Police HQ in NZ on trying to plug some of those loopholes...but they don't seem interested....apparently they have plenty of smart people in Wellington already working on it...LOL. To busy keeping tabs on licensed owners to worry about the fact you can obtain an AR15 with 30 round mags with no licence whatsoever.    


Duh! Police don't make laws - get it right.


No they make policy and try to sell it to the sheeple as law. At the end of the day politicians are muppets and will put though anything that the police want to make into law.


Policy which is masked as law? What? The law is plain to see online. The laws of the country are passed only after readings in parliament. Parliament is full of the people you voted for....or are you one of the ones who doesnt vote?



You've been living in a hole buddy.


Did you miss the whole thumbhole stock = MSSA \ Pistol Grip saga ?? police made some policy and sold it off as law, even spending $100,000 advertising it to the public, then got taken to court and put in their place.

Flash to December 2013 and they push through AAB3 behind closed doors and end up getting some law made thay will allow them to do the same again "but legally" this time.

Where does your blind unwaving trust for our government and police come from ?? considering how often they let us the public down by breaking our trust and committing the most dishonest and underhanded acts. 









networkn
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  #1197928 15-Dec-2014 16:41
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I'm out, words fail me.

SaltyNZ

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  #1197931 15-Dec-2014 16:43
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KiwiNZ:

I get it now, they do look at the phone book and then have to publicly state who they are watching. Yeah that will work ?????? good grief 


When they take your evidence to trial, I'd think you'd probably like to know how it was obtained. Or do you think you shouldn't have that right? If they decide you're harmless after all, then at the very least the fact that someone was surveilled should be reported and the figures released annually. For example, we surveilled 150 people, and it turns out that only 1 of them was worth the effort (he was later convicted of flogging off hot TVs). Or perhaps, since everyone is so very very scared of the terrorists, we surveilled 150,000 people, and our advanced algorithms had us chasing a whole bunch of innocent people.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


heylinb4nz
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  #1197933 15-Dec-2014 16:45
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networkn:
heylinb4nz:
networkn:
ajobbins:
heylinb4nz: 
Just as scary as terrorists are people who are willing to give wholesale sweeping powers to governments (and their agencies) without any question whatsoever..all in the name of a false sense of safety...wish people would look at the bigger picture...and you talk about other having their heads in the sand.


Exactly!


Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune. 

All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.



Not really, i'm not sheeple, I don't entrust my safety to people who care less about me as a citizen and more about me for my lifetime tax paying ability. If anything id get pissy at the fact that they dont allow CCW permit for adequately trained civilians, if they did this whole drama may very well be over by now.


So you have no loans, no credit cards, no mortgage, no form of financial documentation ? Do you have a drivers license? 

If you do, you are entrusting your safety and the privacy of your data to these same people or worse. 




Oh don't get me wrong i'm certainly not one of those completely off grid people, you gotta have some of those things to function in a modern society....means to an end. Doesnt mean i'm going to sit idley by and have further freedoms taken away.

Making people aware of what is going on is just one way of tipping the balance of power.

ajobbins
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  #1197952 15-Dec-2014 17:10
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KiwiNZ: 

yet you vote for them??????????? you do know this is New Zealand? 

actually any further words fail me. 



What makes you think I voted for a party that supports these new laws? I'm realistic. Someone has to be in power under the current system we have. I voted for the 'lesser of evils' as I see it.




Twitter: ajobbins


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