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MikeB4
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  #1197955 15-Dec-2014 17:13
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ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: 

yet you vote for them??????????? you do know this is New Zealand? 

actually any further words fail me. 



What makes you think I voted for a party that supports these new laws? I'm realistic. Someone has to be in power under the current system we have. I voted for the 'lesser of evils' as I see it.


You made a blanket statement about politicians  "Politicians are about as trust worthy as a drug addicted user car salesman - and more and more the power is falling to them."

ajobbins
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  #1197959 15-Dec-2014 17:18
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KiwiNZ:
ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: 

yet you vote for them??????????? you do know this is New Zealand? 

actually any further words fail me. 



What makes you think I voted for a party that supports these new laws? I'm realistic. Someone has to be in power under the current system we have. I voted for the 'lesser of evils' as I see it.


You made a blanket statement about politicians  "Politicians are about as trust worthy as a drug addicted user car salesman - and more and more the power is falling to them."


I gotta vote for someone. Again, I pick the least of a bad bunch (as I see it) - which are certainly not the ones in power today. I voted for a party that seems to support the right balance in order to keep people safe without unnecessarily taking rights away from them.

The problem with laws like this are they are anti-democratic. They give power to incumbent governments to distort the truth and reality if they so choose to, in order to keep in power. They remove the level playing field and check and balances needed to keep those dodgy politicians in check and stop them abusing the power they have.

Now I am not saying that any government with such power will abuse them, but it's certainly open to abuse if they want to. Putting your trust in any government (current or future) to self control and not abuse such powers is a very very dangerous situation.




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MikeB4
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  #1197962 15-Dec-2014 17:25
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no they are in defence of democracy, those who commit atrocities are anti-democratic. But I am out of this nonsense. Play nice folks 

Yabanize
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  #1197966 15-Dec-2014 17:34
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Lets be honest... Telling them we're gonna spy on them will just cause them to be more careful and use encryption and things like TOR.. As if they didn't already

ajobbins
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  #1197969 15-Dec-2014 17:36
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Yabanize: Lets be honest... Telling them we're gonna spy on them will just cause them to be more careful and use encryption and things like TOR.. As if they didn't already


Regardless, they are going to be doing this anyway - making the new laws good only for 'other purposes'




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heylinb4nz
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  #1197970 15-Dec-2014 17:36
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KiwiNZ: no they are in defence of democracy, those who commit atrocities are anti-democratic. But I am out of this nonsense. Play nice folks 


some of the worst atrocities are committed in the name of democracy...and democracy itself is based on a more sinister agenda.

freitasm
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  #1197981 15-Dec-2014 17:58
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bigal_nz:
ajobbins:
 networkn: Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune.  All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines. 


Please don't speculate on my behalf.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.


Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to throw away essential liberties (which you will NEVER get back) because they think it will provide them with some security (History shows it won't), without looking at the bigger picture and truly understanding all of the implications of such laws.


Your right. Lets make it really hard for those trying to protect us. Clearly they don't need any help and could do it blind folded.

All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket.




Targeted intercepted intelligence or country wide interception of data from all citizens? Very different and there are already laws to allow for the first one anyway.





 

 

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MikeSkyrme
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  #1197993 15-Dec-2014 18:26
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freitasm:
bigal_nz:
ajobbins:
 networkn: Bet my bottom dollar if it were you in that cafe or your Fiancee (Mother, daughter, sister, etc), you would be singing an entirely different tune.  All well and good to show bravado from the sidelines. 


Please don't speculate on my behalf.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who insist on learning these lessons the hard way.


Never ceases to amaze me the number of seemingly intelligent people who are willing to throw away essential liberties (which you will NEVER get back) because they think it will provide them with some security (History shows it won't), without looking at the bigger picture and truly understanding all of the implications of such laws.


Your right. Lets make it really hard for those trying to protect us. Clearly they don't need any help and could do it blind folded.

All those warnings that something was going to happen in Sydney must have been a lucky guess and nothing to do with any intercepted intelligence. They really should get a lotto ticket.




Targeted intercepted intelligence or country wide interception of data from all citizens? Very different and there are already laws to allow for the first one anyway.


Interesting....

How do you define a target?




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SaltyNZ

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  #1198005 15-Dec-2014 18:46
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This guy? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11366879 

Pretty sure the police could get a warrant to watch him. And I wouldn't have a problem with it.




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freitasm
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  #1198007 15-Dec-2014 18:48
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SaltyNZ: This guy? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11366879 

Pretty sure the police could get a warrant to watch him. And I wouldn't have a problem with it.


See? You don't need to spy on the entire country - the guy manages to rat himself out on national papers and Facebook.






 

 

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ajobbins
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  #1198014 15-Dec-2014 18:59
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Just look at the Boston Marathon bombers. They were flagged to authorities by a number of people and still weren't investigated. Certainly wasn't any need for mass surveillance to identify them. And even with it, it didn't 'pick them up'




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oxnsox
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  #1198028 15-Dec-2014 19:28
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ajobbins:
bigal_nz:
SaltyNZ: According to these guys, terrorism deaths are as high as 10 people a year. Well... in some places. Not here. Actually, here there haven't been any. But still: 10 people a year, in places far far away. John Key, get right on that please. I'm so very frightened.


Or perhaps the laws could help stop people like this  http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11374445 before they do things like take hostages?

Your nieve if you think it cant happen in NZ.



Let not jump to conclusions. Spying laws may very well have done nothing to stop today's events. 


And thats the rub...... you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Without any surveillance you'd know nothing, and you're likely to know nothing with it. Soo why bother(?), same reason you buy a Lotto ticket.....
You might.

SaltyNZ

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  #1198029 15-Dec-2014 19:29
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ajobbins: Just look at the Boston Marathon bombers. They were flagged to authorities by a number of people and still weren't investigated. Certainly wasn't any need for mass surveillance to identify them. And even with it, it didn't 'pick them up'


They were flagged to the FBI by the FSB, and still not picked up. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-calls-boston-bombings-preventablerussia-calls-boston-bombings-preventablerussia-calls-boston-bombings-preventable/2013/05/31/a48c7f3e-ca30-11e2-9245-773c0123c027_story.html




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Zedshead
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Fred99
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  #1198209 16-Dec-2014 07:22
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freitasm:
SaltyNZ: This guy? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11366879 

Pretty sure the police could get a warrant to watch him. And I wouldn't have a problem with it.


See? You don't need to spy on the entire country - the guy manages to rat himself out on national papers and Facebook.




Compared with the fruit-loop responsible for the Sydney seige, that guy could probably be considered "low profile".
It'll be interesting to see how the Aussies react - whether the "told ya so" brigade will try to use this to win brownie points and greater tolerance for drag-net surveillance of everyone, or the spooks/police/justice system get a bit of a drubbing as to how such a high-profile and outspoken criminal walked straight past them all - with a gun.



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