Obliged to give up passwords and pins to NZ Customs?

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#1218166 20-Jan-2015 11:34

Geektastic: How about storing the stuff you don't want them to see on your personal cloud etc and sauntering through customs with a 'clean' laptop?

And did Apple not recently encrypt iPhones to the point where they do not themselves have the key to decrypt? I imagine Customs would struggle with that one if you refused to cooperate. How about File Vault whole disk encryption on a Macbook? I don't know the technical in and out but I imagine that would take customs a long while to hack by brute force - way beyond the cost that is reasonable unless you are convinced the laptop contains terrorist attack plans or something I am sure.

If you set your iPhone right, you can have it wipe the phone if the PIN is entered incorrectly too often as well!

That's the irony: any serious criminal with incriminating information is going to do exactly that. This policy will assist in catching little fish at best.

In regards to iPhones: bear in mind you have to use the more secure lock settings introduced in iOS8 to get the most benefit. The less secure settings from iOS7 and earlier do not encrypt everything on the device.

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#1218167 20-Jan-2015 11:34

Gordy7:
"told to surrender passwords to her laptop and phone for curious border agents.

Why not simply remove your passwords on these devices for border agents.
Then put back your passwords after leaving customs.

Alternatively put in temporary passwords for surrender to keep the border agents happy.
Again replace with your good passwords after leaving customs.

Cheers

It is more about what is then done with the access that those passwords grant - not the knowing of the passwords themselves!

I think in future I will setup a new dummy account where possible on my devices, leave my real stuff filevault/encryption and hand over the dummy details if (however unlikely) ever asked.

MikeB4

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#1218170 20-Jan-2015 11:37

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Gordy7:
"told to surrender passwords to her laptop and phone for curious border agents.

Why not simply remove your passwords on these devices for border agents.
Then put back your passwords after leaving customs.

Alternatively put in temporary passwords for surrender to keep the border agents happy.
Again replace with your good passwords after leaving customs.

Cheers

It is more about what is then done with the access that those passwords grant - not the knowing of the passwords themselves!

I think in future I will setup a new dummy account where possible on my devices, leave my real stuff filevault/encryption and hand over the dummy details if (however unlikely) ever asked.

These guys are not stupid and they would pick that and life for you suddenly becomes a pain in the butt. Heads they win tails you lose. Just cooperate and lifes good. Unless of course there is dodgy stuff stored

LennonNZ

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#1218171 20-Jan-2015 11:38

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2012/0024/latest/DLM2136824.html

"may use any reasonable measures to access a computer system or other data storage device, that the person being searched is carrying or that is in the person's physical possession or immediate control, if any intangible material that is the subject of the search may be in that computer system or other device"

Reasonable Measures.. "Can I have your password"

SaltyNZ

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#1218172 20-Jan-2015 11:39

An interesting question is, 'what if I am not the owner of the information stored on the device?' For example, if I'm travelling for work I will have a work laptop. The laptop has commercially sensitive (but not illegal) information on it. I am authorised to access that information, but I'm not authorised to give to anyone else, and as part of my employment agreement I agree to keep secret any such information.

If I agree to give access to those documents to customs and immigration (not just in NZ, but generally anyone's equivalent) because that's the law, am I in breach of my employment contract?

Of course as others have suggested, if I had anything really secret to take with me, I wouldn't take it with me, I'd leave it on the internet and download it via secure channels after I arrived. But there would still be the less-secret-but-still-not-for-general-dissemination types of stuff on my laptop. Or even my work email, which sometimes contains the more-secret variety of document.

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MikeB4

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#1218178 20-Jan-2015 11:42

SaltyNZ: An interesting question is, 'what if I am not the owner of the information stored on the device?' For example, if I'm travelling for work I will have a work laptop. The laptop has commercially sensitive (but not illegal) information on it. I am authorised to access that information, but I'm not authorised to give to anyone else, and as part of my employment agreement I agree to keep secret any such information.

If I agree to give access to those documents to customs and immigration (not just in NZ, but generally anyone's equivalent) because that's the law, am I in breach of my employment contract?

Of course as others have suggested, if I had anything really secret to take with me, I wouldn't take it with me, I'd leave it on the internet and download it via secure channels after I arrived. But there would still be the less-secret-but-still-not-for-general-dissemination types of stuff on my laptop. Or even my work email, which sometimes contains the more-secret variety of document.

You are carrying it across the border you are responsible for it. If you cannot provide access they can seize it.

LennonNZ

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#1218181 20-Jan-2015 11:43

Your employment contact can't contact you out of the law of the country you are in and the law (NZ) says basically if you have it on you (_or_) its under your control they have the rights to look at it (In a reasonable manner)

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#1218183 20-Jan-2015 11:44

KiwiNZ:

These guys are not stupid and they would pick that and life for you suddenly becomes a pain in the butt.

I dunno, I reckon I could create a convincing enough dummy setup to fool yer average customs employee..!

KiwiNZ: Heads they win tails you lose. Just cooperate and lifes good. Unless of course there is dodgy stuff stored

Like I said, I think cooperation on searches or access carried out under oversight and presence of the owner is just about bearable, assuming genuine "reasonable cause" (whatever the hell that means...)

Being forced to give up the keys to one's digital kingdom on the wooliest of pretenses and letting C&E loose on it all - out of sight - is not something that travelers should be expected to do in any reasonable democracy.

SaltyNZ

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#1218190 20-Jan-2015 11:49

LennonNZ: Your employment contact can't contact you out of the law of the country you are in and the law (NZ) says basically if you have it on you (_or_) its under your control they have the rights to look at it (In a reasonable manner)

Ah yes, that's true.

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#1218194 20-Jan-2015 11:55

An interesting surname :-)

I'm supposed to respect my elders, but it's getting harder and harder for me to find one now.

Geektastic

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#1218213 20-Jan-2015 12:04

LennonNZ: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2012/0024/latest/DLM2136824.html
"may use any reasonable measures to access a computer system or other data storage device, that the person being searched is carrying or that is in the person's physical possession or immediate control, if any intangible material that is the subject of the search may be in that computer system or other device"

Reasonable Measures.. "Can I have your password"

Reasonable answer

"No. Can I speak to my lawyer now please?"

gnfb

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#1218239 20-Jan-2015 12:44

I know we all want to stand up for our rights as NZ citizens and as...(do they still call them aliens?) Non NZ citizens and we don't want to give "the man!" to much control or access.

But I live in the real world we have no control! , we have no rights!, we have no privacy! So when I go through customs anywhere I say "Yes Sir No Sir ! How high Sir" "Please look at everything" "Shoes off and belt out laptop out hands up" I have short hair and I am smartly dressed. Other than third world countries I have never been held at customs or required extra searches by TSA. Oh I also plaster that 'Its ok I know you are only doing your job " look on my face

So Dont carry on anything you aren't prepared to lose Dont pack anything that could cause you problems

And one most people forget DO NOT borrow your teenage son or daughters backpack or carry-on Even if their is no pot in there it can still be detected Especially going to Oz there border folk have a hardon for drugs of any description.

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networkn

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#1218247 20-Jan-2015 12:49

What would happen if you were asked to submit to a physical search (Cavity Search) and you refused? Can they do so by force?

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#1218250 20-Jan-2015 12:58

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Must remember to reboot my iPad and iPhone before passing through LAX this week!

My condolences if you are transiting through LAX. I try my best to stay out of the US (and in particular LAX) when traveling to Europe. Talk about feeling like they don't want you around.

First you have to go through immigration, even as a transit passanger, then they dump you in a tired waiting room to sit and steam for however long it takes for the airplane to refuel and restock. (Typically a couple of hours).

Transiting through Hong Kong or Singapore is like being in heaven in comparison.

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MikeB4

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#1218251 20-Jan-2015 12:59

networkn: What would happen if you were asked to submit to a physical search (Cavity Search) and you refused? Can they do so by force?

A forced cavity search,.. Now that's going to hurt :p

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