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Topic # 165712 18-Feb-2015 10:45
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It seems daily that ISIS is beheading, burning alive, or otherwise torturing and people, at least some of whom seem fairly innocent to me, though it may just be the way the press has it presented. 

These are particularly hideous ways to kill people in my opinion, unnecessarily cruel and painful. 

I believe a global effort is required to put them down, I don't have an issue with NZ sending troops either in a Military or support role (I prefer support).

I don't think it's reasonable for any country to take a hands off approach. 

It seems to be a particularly evil group. I am unsure their true motives?



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  Reply # 1241393 18-Feb-2015 10:48
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This is another genocide that the international community is taking too long to react to. As for NZ sending forces we neither have the numbers of combat forces nor the necessary hardware to do this.




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  Reply # 1241407 18-Feb-2015 10:52
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We can't defeat the idea but we can definitely take down huge numbers of the scum bags in air attacks. It's awesome seeing Jordan unleashing hell after the brutal murder of the Jordanian pilot, but we need other, bigger, countires to get involved and do the same. Are ground troops even required? Can't we just bomb them off the face of the earth?


 
 
 
 




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  Reply # 1241409 18-Feb-2015 10:54
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KiwiNZ: This is another genocide that the international community is taking too long to react to. As for NZ sending forces we neither have the numbers of combat forces nor the necessary hardware to do this.


We sent troops to Afghanistan.

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  Reply # 1241410 18-Feb-2015 10:54
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The situation is far more complex there than the media make out. There are so many disparate groups who make up ISIS and each with their own grievances. I imagine only a smaller number have a lust for power (which it really is an excuse for) and others jump on the bandwagon to achieve their own (non caliphate linked) objectives.







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  Reply # 1241417 18-Feb-2015 10:55
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Zeon: The situation is far more complex there than the media make out. There are so many disparate groups who make up ISIS and each with their own grievances. I imagine only a smaller number have a lust for power (which it really is an excuse for) and others jump on the bandwagon to achieve their own (non caliphate linked) objectives.


This is likely quite true, however is that an excuse not to take action? As far as I am concerned as long as people are being beheaded en-mass or set alight (A terrible terrible way to die I can only imagine) action should be taken.

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  Reply # 1241440 18-Feb-2015 11:03
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The only way military force could work - and please note, I think it's a bad idea and we should not do it - would be to send in an absolutely massive global military offensive to sweep in and forcibly restore order. Literally hundreds of thousands of personnel; enough to ensure that any numbnuts who starts waving his or her gun around is swiftly disarmed and detained. This invasion force then needs to stay there for generations. Generations, because the only way this could ever work is for the rule of law to be maintained for so long that the last old tribal warlord finally dies off, and the only people left are those who have been brought up to respect the rule of law for their entire lives.

If that sounds a lot like colonisation, it's because it more or less is. We don't really have the right to do it, and we should not do it, but it's the only external intervention that could ever work.

We've tried training - but at the first sign of gorillas in Hiluxes, the Iraqi soldiers bailed out of their M1A1 tanks and ran. I think that shows how useful simple training is. We've tried temporary peacekeeping-size forces: they work fine right up until they leave, and then the gorillas move back in while the chairs are still warm.

The only way to bring law and order is if the people themselves want it badly enough. As long as there are enough ordinary people who secretly or not-so-secretly agree with the Taliban, or al-Qaeda, or ISIS, or whoever tomorrow's nutters are, then they'll keep winning.

TL;DR, we can't help the locals until they want to be helped.




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  Reply # 1241441 18-Feb-2015 11:05
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networkn:
KiwiNZ: This is another genocide that the international community is taking too long to react to. As for NZ sending forces we neither have the numbers of combat forces nor the necessary hardware to do this.


We sent troops to Afghanistan.


NZ Defence force has lost a lot personnel since the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Also we were not using our hardware. The LAV's are useless and can barely withstand a hit by a AK47 shell. The Steyr personal weapon while good it is obsolete along with so much of the equipment our forces would have to go with.

We would be better off providing resources to replace forces stationed elsewhere to allow those counties to provide assets. 




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 




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  Reply # 1241443 18-Feb-2015 11:05
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SaltyNZ: The only way military force could work - and please note, I think it's a bad idea and we should not do it - would be to send in an absolutely massive global military offensive to sweep in and forcibly restore order. Literally hundreds of thousands of personnel; enough to ensure that any numbnuts who starts waving his or her gun around is swiftly disarmed and detained. This invasion force then needs to stay there for generations. Generations, because the only way this could ever work is for the rule of law to be maintained for so long that the last old tribal warlord finally dies off, and the only people left are those who have been brought up to respect the rule of law for their entire lives.

If that sounds a lot like colonisation, it's because it more or less is. We don't really have the right to do it, and we should not do it, but it's the only external intervention that could ever work.

We've tried training - but at the first sign of gorillas in Hiluxes, the Iraqi soldiers bailed out of their M1A1 tanks and ran. I think that shows how useful simple training is. We've tried temporary peacekeeping-size forces: they work fine right up until they leave, and then the gorillas move back in while the chairs are still warm.

The only way to bring law and order is if the people themselves want it badly enough. As long as there are enough ordinary people who secretly or not-so-secretly agree with the Taliban, or al-Qaeda, or ISIS, or whoever tomorrow's nutters are, then they'll keep winning.

TL;DR, we can't help the locals until they want to be helped.


So we do nothing ?



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  Reply # 1241445 18-Feb-2015 11:06
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KiwiNZ:
networkn:
KiwiNZ: This is another genocide that the international community is taking too long to react to. As for NZ sending forces we neither have the numbers of combat forces nor the necessary hardware to do this.


We sent troops to Afghanistan.


NZ Defence force has lost a lot personnel since the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Also we were not using our hardware. The LAV's are useless and can barely withstand a hit by a AK47 shell. The Steyr personal weapon while good it is obsolete along with so much of the equipment our forces would have to go with.

We would be better off providing resources to replace forces stationed elsewhere to allow those counties to provide assets. 


I'd be ok with that.

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  Reply # 1241446 18-Feb-2015 11:10
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This sort of issue is why we need to develop effective orbital weapons platforms. Base Delta Zero.




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  Reply # 1241448 18-Feb-2015 11:12
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Inphinity: This sort of issue is why we need to develop effective orbital weapons platforms. Base Delta Zero.


Well depends on your idea of effective, but bombing has proven in the past to take out lots of innocents, unsure if we would be killing more people that way than ISIS are.

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  Reply # 1241461 18-Feb-2015 11:22
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Just got this link in my Flipboard which explains in detail what they think Isis wants. Long article http://www.theatlantic.com/...






[
Mod Edit |BH| Displayed link shortened to fix page display issues for some resolutions.]

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  Reply # 1241464 18-Feb-2015 11:26
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I think they want everyone to be like them. If you're different (eg, westerner, or not a muslim), you're a threat to them.




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  Reply # 1241465 18-Feb-2015 11:28
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networkn:
SaltyNZ: The only way military force could work - and please note, I think it's a bad idea and we should not do it - would be to send in an absolutely massive global military offensive to sweep in and forcibly restore order. Literally hundreds of thousands of personnel; enough to ensure that any numbnuts who starts waving his or her gun around is swiftly disarmed and detained. This invasion force then needs to stay there for generations. Generations, because the only way this could ever work is for the rule of law to be maintained for so long that the last old tribal warlord finally dies off, and the only people left are those who have been brought up to respect the rule of law for their entire lives.

If that sounds a lot like colonisation, it's because it more or less is. We don't really have the right to do it, and we should not do it, but it's the only external intervention that could ever work.

We've tried training - but at the first sign of gorillas in Hiluxes, the Iraqi soldiers bailed out of their M1A1 tanks and ran. I think that shows how useful simple training is. We've tried temporary peacekeeping-size forces: they work fine right up until they leave, and then the gorillas move back in while the chairs are still warm.

The only way to bring law and order is if the people themselves want it badly enough. As long as there are enough ordinary people who secretly or not-so-secretly agree with the Taliban, or al-Qaeda, or ISIS, or whoever tomorrow's nutters are, then they'll keep winning.

TL;DR, we can't help the locals until they want to be helped.


So we do nothing ?


Remember the reason ISIS exists is because we (as in Western world and including us with US and Europe) went in and toppled the existing power structure. Gaddafi, Saddam and Assad were doing a decent job in that respect. Syria is more complicated as the Gulf states were the major destabilisers, our friend and ally Saudi Arabia especially likes supporting fundamentalist Sunni fighters overseas.

They have learnt how to use the media to further their aims, I think that is the main reason for the graphic barbarism. You could say it is their equivalent of the laser targeted bomb footage.

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  Reply # 1241466 18-Feb-2015 11:29
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networkn:
Zeon: The situation is far more complex there than the media make out. There are so many disparate groups who make up ISIS and each with their own grievances. I imagine only a smaller number have a lust for power (which it really is an excuse for) and others jump on the bandwagon to achieve their own (non caliphate linked) objectives.


This is likely quite true, however is that an excuse not to take action? As far as I am concerned as long as people are being beheaded en-mass or set alight (A terrible terrible way to die I can only imagine) action should be taken.


IMO, yes. Taking action without knowing *why* we are taking action is a recipe for disaster.

Let's think back to the apartheid South Africa, where a punishment was the "Soweto necklace"... a tyre filled with diesel/petrol put over the target's head and set alight. If it didn't kill the victim, it would leave them horribly scarred. I'd say equally brutal as ISIS, and inflicted by people labelled at the time as terrorists (ANC). NZ didn't feel the need to intervene there, and ultimately their cause was accepted as valid (even if their methods were unacceptable). Could it be that in 30 years, with the benefits of hindsight, the grievances of ISIS are found to be real?



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