The Evil that is ISIS

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#1241900 18-Feb-2015 19:29

xlinknz:

The NZ govt isn't overly concerned with permanent detention without trial at Guantanamo Bay

Nor are they overly concerned with the effectively permanent detention of asylum seekers in offshore processing in Australia (including children) despite repeated condemnation from the UN for international human rights convention breaches

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blakamin

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#1241902 18-Feb-2015 19:31

ajobbins:
xlinknz:

The NZ govt isn't overly concerned with permanent detention without trial at Guantanamo Bay

Nor are they overly concerned with the effectively permanent detention of asylum seekers in offshore processing in Australia (including children) despite repeated condemnation from the UN for international human rights convention breaches

Wondered if I should start a thread about "The Evil that is the Australian Govt" but it would probably break GZ. :/

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#1241903 18-Feb-2015 19:31

KiwiNZ:
joker97:
KiwiNZ:
testha:
geekiegeek: As far as NZ supporting the fight against ISIS, I fully support this even in a limited capacity as its not just about the impact we have on the ground but also about showing that we stand with the rest of the world and act as good global citizens.

The same good global citizens that destabilized the region by invading Iraq for false reasons and made the birth of ISIS possible?

You do know the number of people Saddam Hussein slaughtered. E. G the Kurds

yes, but invading Iraq under the false pretence of WOMD ... ! why didn't GWB just said, we want Saddam out so we can take his oil?

but these ISIS guys have struck a difficult chord to break.
- they use social media
- they influence the young people who are willing to risk it all
- they can influence people on the other side of the globe without so much as an email

the problem is, the West cannot solve it. only the Arabs can.

This is a Global problem

i'm happy no one's suggested mass surveillance as an answer.

agreed it's a global problem ... but what is the solution?

MikeB4

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#1241904 18-Feb-2015 19:32

xlinknz:
joker97:

1) this happens all the time, before there was ISIS, someone else / some other groups are doing it. sometimes even governments.

2) beheading: in 2014 alone, Saudi Arabia beheaded 87 people under their law

Exactly what is new how ISIS/L cleverly use the media

The NZ govt seems to be selective about where it shows its outage...

The Saudi's behead people in public they just don't post to Twitter or youtube. NZ sends no less than our governor general to the ceremony of condolences for the Saudi King, the new king immediately beheads more people. I won't go on about how authoritarian that [friend] state is

The NZ govt doesn't offer to help the fight against Boko Haram [fewer cries of outrage there]
The NZ govt wasn't overly concerned at the extra ordinary renditioning [often of innocents] the US was doing, often to countries who would happily torture those provided to them
The NZ govt isn't overly concerned with permanent detention without trial at Guantanamo Bay

I could make the list longer

I'd rather see a NZ response be more even handed

How big do you think our Defence Force is?

we do not have the resources or man power to commit to one front, two is a complete impossibility

MikeB4

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#1241905 18-Feb-2015 19:33

joker97:

i'm happy no one's suggested mass surveillance as an answer.

agreed it's a global problem ... but what is the solution?

mass surveillance :P

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#1241908 18-Feb-2015 19:40

Baited!

Dairyxox

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#1241973 18-Feb-2015 20:52

It's all moot, John Key is committed to towing the line of the U.S. interests with no sign otherwise. Elections are e a long way off and as kiwis we've got to live with the consequences.

Personally I think its a shame that it's not easier to totally isolate ourselves from nut jobs like Isis. Build big walls etc etc leave them to themselves and not have to worry about them as being a threat either. Kind of. ...You do your thing. Well do ours. Do not disturb.

lucky015

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#1242020 18-Feb-2015 22:05

I just see the middle east as a bee hive of religious extremism, The U.S are the ones who poked the hive and are now getting stung.

There is no real end in sight as both are fighting blindly for a reason they have both long since forgotten, Neither side willing to give up.

We don't have any ability to make any difference so why should we try and stick our foot in the door?

At the same time the U.S have put themselves in a position to be enough of a pain to deal with (think child screaming in a library) that its easier just to go to war than it is to say no to them, I.E Why the UK seems to follow them blindly so it doesn't really matter at the end of the day as your shooting yourself in the foot either way.

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#1242026 18-Feb-2015 22:15

lucky015: I just see the middle east as a bee hive of religious extremism, The U.S are the ones who poked the hive and are now getting stung.

There is no real end in sight as both are fighting blindly for a reason they have both long since forgotten, Neither side willing to give up.

We don't have any ability to make any difference so why should we try and stick our foot in the door?

At the same time the U.S have put themselves in a position to be enough of a pain to deal with (think child screaming in a library) that its easier just to go to war than it is to say no to them, I.E Why the UK seems to follow them blindly so it doesn't really matter at the end of the day as your shooting yourself in the foot either way.

It's not the US that is getting stung, it is Egyptians, Iraqi, Syrians. ....

xlinknz

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#1242068 19-Feb-2015 08:10

ajobbins:
xlinknz:

The NZ govt isn't overly concerned with permanent detention without trial at Guantanamo Bay

Nor are they overly concerned with the effectively permanent detention of asylum seekers in offshore processing in Australia (including children) despite repeated condemnation from the UN for international human rights convention breaches

It obvious that we go where the "club" goes [or expects] and you don't criticize the other members of the club

Our prime minister has already said going to Iraq is the 'price of being in the club'

Fighting ISIS/L doesn't fix the root causes of why they exist

MikeB4

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#1242083 19-Feb-2015 08:26

xlinknz:
ajobbins:
xlinknz:

The NZ govt isn't overly concerned with permanent detention without trial at Guantanamo Bay

Nor are they overly concerned with the effectively permanent detention of asylum seekers in offshore processing in Australia (including children) despite repeated condemnation from the UN for international human rights convention breaches

It obvious that we go where the "club" goes [or expects] and you don't criticize the other members of the club

Our prime minister has already said going to Iraq is the 'price of being in the club'

Fighting ISIS/L doesn't fix the root causes of why they exist

when ISIS no longer exists it will easier to fix the root causes.

jonathan18

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#1242093 19-Feb-2015 08:44

KiwiNZ: when ISIS no longer exists it will easier to fix the root causes.

And you don't think that the use of brute force to ensure 'ISIS no longer exists' - with all the unavoidable reality of "collateral damage" - is likely to just create yet another generation of those who have witnessed the horrors of war including having members of the family - whether combatants or not - killed and their country ravaged turn against the supposed "bringers of freedom"?

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#1242100 19-Feb-2015 09:00

KiwiNZ:
xlinknz:
ajobbins:
xlinknz:

The NZ govt isn't overly concerned with permanent detention without trial at Guantanamo Bay

Nor are they overly concerned with the effectively permanent detention of asylum seekers in offshore processing in Australia (including children) despite repeated condemnation from the UN for international human rights convention breaches

It obvious that we go where the "club" goes [or expects] and you don't criticize the other members of the club

Our prime minister has already said going to Iraq is the 'price of being in the club'

Fighting ISIS/L doesn't fix the root causes of why they exist

when ISIS no longer exists it will easier to fix the root causes.

hmm ... almost certainly gets harder

networkn

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#1242124 19-Feb-2015 09:43

Dairyxox: It's all moot, John Key is committed to towing the line of the U.S. interests with no sign otherwise. Elections are e a long way off and as kiwis we've got to live with the consequences.

You're acting like it would make any difference to how most people would vote, which at least for me and most I know who voted National, it wouldn't.

Geektastic

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#1242131 19-Feb-2015 10:03

I read a thriller last year or maybe the year before which had as the plot a plan by 'rogue elements' in the US government/military to cause a nuclear missile to be launched from a submarine onto the second holiest site in Islam.

This would be followed by a public statement that a second one would follow to the holiest site if they did not all promptly wind their necks in. It was pre-ISIS though.

Made for a good book! Blasted if I can remember the title.

EDIT - I think it was Wildfire by Nelson de Mille.

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