Should Waiheke Island De-Amalgamated from Auckland Council?

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#1261716 18-Mar-2015 14:20

KiwiNZ: This is a tricky one, in the Wellington Region we are going through the debate as to should we have a super city. There is a case for and a case against and both camps have some merit. Personally I am opposed to super cities. I also don't have a lot of faith in Local Government, I would rather see it dealt with by central Government.
As for Waiheke Island I am not sure that their funding requirements could be met by the residents alone.

I agree in the sense that it should be handled centrally these days, as there are effiencies doing it that way, and costs are shared across a large pool of people. But I am for a supercity because it is better than the current system where you have many tiny councils with so much duplication.

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#1261719 18-Mar-2015 14:25

mattwnz:
KiwiNZ: This is a tricky one, in the Wellington Region we are going through the debate as to should we have a super city. There is a case for and a case against and both camps have some merit. Personally I am opposed to super cities. I also don't have a lot of faith in Local Government, I would rather see it dealt with by central Government.
As for Waiheke Island I am not sure that their funding requirements could be met by the residents alone.

I agree in the sense that it should be handled centrally these days, as there are effiencies doing it that way, and costs are shared across a large pool of people. But I am for a supercity because it is better than the current system where you have many tiny councils with so much duplication.

They say it will cost the rate payers $200million to create the super city, you can guarantee that it will end up costing twice that. Super cities are a way of creating a super mess to be cleaned up at a later date. I sure as heck do not wish to see Celia Brown or Ray Wallace as Mayor of the whole region, it would be worse than Auckland.

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#1261758 18-Mar-2015 15:05

KiwiNZ:

They say it will cost the rate payers $200million to create the super city,

Ha! You might get away with a mere $200M in costs to migrate all the old financial software suites to a single, centralised one, but only if the original quote for the job was $20M.

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cyberhub

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#1261762 18-Mar-2015 15:10

mattwnz: The problem with many small councils is that they don't have adequate resources. They have district plans but often don't have resources to keep it upto date and police it. Most revenue they get comes from ratepayers, so you often see that small communities pay more in rates than in areas with large councils, as there is a smaller pool of people to pay for infrastructure. Merging councils shares that cost across more ratepayers. There have been examples of small councils getting into trouble financially when they have had to pay for things like new sewage treatment plants or other key infrastructure replacements. We also simple don't need all these small councils and duplication of mayors, CEOs , and staff. The whole rates thing in NZ, by measuring what people pay in rates being tied to either the GV or LV of the property is also a grossly unfair way of measuring rates, as it discourages improving your property, especially if rates on the CV. It should be based on actual people living in a property, due to that being proportional to the infrastructure that is needed to support that population, and is how they rate overseas.

Hi Mattwnz
I am not sure whether you looked at the infographic. Here it is again, this link is bigger so you can read it better.

http://www.ourwaiheke.co.nz/council-comparison-press-release/

What you will notice is that Waiheke has the highest income, the least roading and because all residential houses are on tank water and septic there is no water cost when compared with other councils. So financially it should be fine. Of course that is upto the new CEO/Mayor to figure out if a Waiheke Council gets the go ahead.

Theoretically the idea of combining Councils to get better efficiency makes sense. However in reality, this just does not seem to happen. Has anyone noticed any efficiencies in Auckland Council?

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cyberhub

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#1261770 18-Mar-2015 15:19

They say it will cost the rate payers $200million to create the super city, you can guarantee that it will end up costing twice that. Super cities are a way of creating a super mess to be cleaned up at a later date. I sure as heck do not wish to see Celia Brown or Ray Wallace as Mayor of the whole region, it would be worse than Auckland.

Well the Auckland Council IT Budget Blowout is currently at $157 million. Who knows what it will end up at by the time they are finished.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11412560

Just on the IT budget blow out your $200 million is just about used up.

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old3eyes

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#1261784 18-Mar-2015 15:44

mattwnz:
KiwiNZ: This is a tricky one, in the Wellington Region we are going through the debate as to should we have a super city. There is a case for and a case against and both camps have some merit. Personally I am opposed to super cities. I also don't have a lot of faith in Local Government, I would rather see it dealt with by central Government.
As for Waiheke Island I am not sure that their funding requirements could be met by the residents alone.

I agree in the sense that it should be handled centrally these days, as there are effiencies doing it that way, and costs are shared across a large pool of people. But I am for a supercity because it is better than the current system where you have many tiny councils with so much duplication.

You haven't learned from the Auckland experience. If you want more bureaucracy and higher rates then go for it but at least you have a choice which we in Auckland didn't get..

Regards,

Old3eyes

mattwnz

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#1261786 18-Mar-2015 15:46

Wellington council is about to upgrade their IT systems, so I imagine they have built the supercity requirements into it. Otherwise it will be a white elephant.

mattwnz

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#1261787 18-Mar-2015 15:49

old3eyes:
mattwnz:
KiwiNZ: This is a tricky one, in the Wellington Region we are going through the debate as to should we have a super city. There is a case for and a case against and both camps have some merit. Personally I am opposed to super cities. I also don't have a lot of faith in Local Government, I would rather see it dealt with by central Government.
As for Waiheke Island I am not sure that their funding requirements could be met by the residents alone.

I agree in the sense that it should be handled centrally these days, as there are effiencies doing it that way, and costs are shared across a large pool of people. But I am for a supercity because it is better than the current system where you have many tiny councils with so much duplication.

You haven't learned from the Auckland experience. If you want more bureaucracy and higher rates then go for it but at least you have a choice which we in Auckland didn't get..

They can learn from the errors that were made from that. I can't see why rates would end up being higher. They tend to go up 3-5% a year anyany,. so they were always going to be higher no matter what happened. But you only have one CEO to pay, say 500k, rather than 7-9 at 300k ish each.

mattwnz

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#1261793 18-Mar-2015 15:51

cyberhub:
mattwnz: The problem with many small councils is that they don't have adequate resources. They have district plans but often don't have resources to keep it upto date and police it. Most revenue they get comes from ratepayers, so you often see that small communities pay more in rates than in areas with large councils, as there is a smaller pool of people to pay for infrastructure. Merging councils shares that cost across more ratepayers. There have been examples of small councils getting into trouble financially when they have had to pay for things like new sewage treatment plants or other key infrastructure replacements. We also simple don't need all these small councils and duplication of mayors, CEOs , and staff. The whole rates thing in NZ, by measuring what people pay in rates being tied to either the GV or LV of the property is also a grossly unfair way of measuring rates, as it discourages improving your property, especially if rates on the CV. It should be based on actual people living in a property, due to that being proportional to the infrastructure that is needed to support that population, and is how they rate overseas.

Hi Mattwnz
I am not sure whether you looked at the infographic. Here it is again, this link is bigger so you can read it better.

http://www.ourwaiheke.co.nz/council-comparison-press-release/

What you will notice is that Waiheke has the highest income, the least roading and because all residential houses are on tank water and septic there is no water cost when compared with other councils. So financially it should be fine. Of course that is upto the new CEO/Mayor to figure out if a Waiheke Council gets the go ahead.

Theoretically the idea of combining Councils to get better efficiency makes sense. However in reality, this just does not seem to happen. Has anyone noticed any efficiencies in Auckland Council?

Wouldn't you be be better to become a separate country then? What you are saying, is that you don't want your rates to be subsidising the rest of the region. but without the rest of the region, you would find it difficult to exist. You have compared it with some pretty extreme councils. I am very familar with on of them on your list, and they are under resourced, and would benefit from joining a supercity.

Davy

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#1261794 18-Mar-2015 15:52

cyberhub:
mattwnz: The problem with many small councils is that they don't have adequate resources. They have district plans but often don't have resources to keep it upto date and police it. Most revenue they get comes from ratepayers, so you often see that small communities pay more in rates than in areas with large councils, as there is a smaller pool of people to pay for infrastructure. Merging councils shares that cost across more ratepayers. There have been examples of small councils getting into trouble financially when they have had to pay for things like new sewage treatment plants or other key infrastructure replacements. We also simple don't need all these small councils and duplication of mayors, CEOs , and staff. The whole rates thing in NZ, by measuring what people pay in rates being tied to either the GV or LV of the property is also a grossly unfair way of measuring rates, as it discourages improving your property, especially if rates on the CV. It should be based on actual people living in a property, due to that being proportional to the infrastructure that is needed to support that population, and is how they rate overseas.

Hi Mattwnz
I am not sure whether you looked at the infographic. Here it is again, this link is bigger so you can read it better.

http://www.ourwaiheke.co.nz/council-comparison-press-release/

What you will notice is that Waiheke has the highest income, the least roading and because all residential houses are on tank water and septic there is no water cost when compared with other councils. So financially it should be fine. Of course that is upto the new CEO/Mayor to figure out if a Waiheke Council gets the go ahead.

Theoretically the idea of combining Councils to get better efficiency makes sense. However in reality, this just does not seem to happen. Has anyone noticed any efficiencies in Auckland Council?

Amalgamating councils does not bring about any efficiency. I live in Devonport, and when we were absorbed into North Shore Council our rates went up and not down, so no efficiency benefit there. Now we have been merged into the supercity, and rates have gone up by over 50 percent in just a few years with no sign of efficiencies bringing about a reduction. It has been nothing less than a disaster, and I would support any move that provided the opportunity to leave the supercity and go back to the independent borough councils that we used to have.

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#1261798 18-Mar-2015 15:58

mattwnz: Wellington council is about to upgrade their IT systems, so I imagine they have built the supercity requirements into it. Otherwise it will be a white elephant.

I very much doubt it. That process started quite some time ago.

mattwnz

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#1261799 18-Mar-2015 15:59

Davy:
cyberhub:
mattwnz: The problem with many small councils is that they don't have adequate resources. They have district plans but often don't have resources to keep it upto date and police it. Most revenue they get comes from ratepayers, so you often see that small communities pay more in rates than in areas with large councils, as there is a smaller pool of people to pay for infrastructure. Merging councils shares that cost across more ratepayers. There have been examples of small councils getting into trouble financially when they have had to pay for things like new sewage treatment plants or other key infrastructure replacements. We also simple don't need all these small councils and duplication of mayors, CEOs , and staff. The whole rates thing in NZ, by measuring what people pay in rates being tied to either the GV or LV of the property is also a grossly unfair way of measuring rates, as it discourages improving your property, especially if rates on the CV. It should be based on actual people living in a property, due to that being proportional to the infrastructure that is needed to support that population, and is how they rate overseas.

Hi Mattwnz
I am not sure whether you looked at the infographic. Here it is again, this link is bigger so you can read it better.

http://www.ourwaiheke.co.nz/council-comparison-press-release/

What you will notice is that Waiheke has the highest income, the least roading and because all residential houses are on tank water and septic there is no water cost when compared with other councils. So financially it should be fine. Of course that is upto the new CEO/Mayor to figure out if a Waiheke Council gets the go ahead.

Theoretically the idea of combining Councils to get better efficiency makes sense. However in reality, this just does not seem to happen. Has anyone noticed any efficiencies in Auckland Council?

Amalgamating councils does not bring about any efficiency. I live in Devonport, and when we were absorbed into North Shore Council our rates went up and not down, so no efficiency benefit there. Now we have been merged into the supercity, and rates have gone up by over 50 percent in just a few years with no sign of efficiencies bringing about a reduction. It has been nothing less than a disaster, and I would support any move that provided the opportunity to leave the supercity and go back to the independent borough councils that we used to have.

But why have they gone up? Has your house value increased substantially. You can't have your cake and eat it too, eg if you live in an expesnive house, you pay more in rates under the current system. But you benefit if you sell the house and downsize to a cheaper house, and pay less in rates. Or have they moved from LV to RV ratings?. Or were you previously paying a low amount compared to the rest of the region? Quoting it as a percentage rise doesn't really show much, it is the dollar figure. But really the ratings system is broken, as you can have 10 people living in a house and paying 2k in rates (200 per person), but you can have an elderly person living in a house, and paying 4k in rates (4k per person), for exactly the same services. But the 10 person house, will be using 10x the resources. eg. sewage, libraries etc.

I pay over 4k in rates, to a small council in the wellington region, and the rates have gone up a lot over recent years, and there has been no amalgamation yet. This is partly due to a small pool of ratepayers.

mattwnz

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#1261804 18-Mar-2015 16:07

KiwiNZ:
mattwnz: Wellington council is about to upgrade their IT systems, so I imagine they have built the supercity requirements into it. Otherwise it will be a white elephant.

I very much doubt it. That process started quite some time ago.

The supercity has been in the works for a long time too though. Hopefully it will be setup and run by the regional council instead of the wellington city council. I think it is more likely we will see a mayor wilde, than a mayor brown.

ResponseMediaNZ

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#1261816 18-Mar-2015 16:17

You will see over the next 5-10 years more and more Amalgamations from smaller TLA's to larger region based TLA's.
We are seeing it with Rural Fire at the moment into Enlarged Rural Fire Districts. We will see it more and more with Emergency Management as well

I doubt going against the grain and forming a council will please Local Govt NZ. Plus setting up and running a council is expensive...

Geektastic

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#1261840 18-Mar-2015 17:01

mattwnz:
KiwiNZ: This is a tricky one, in the Wellington Region we are going through the debate as to should we have a super city. There is a case for and a case against and both camps have some merit. Personally I am opposed to super cities. I also don't have a lot of faith in Local Government, I would rather see it dealt with by central Government.
As for Waiheke Island I am not sure that their funding requirements could be met by the residents alone.

I agree in the sense that it should be handled centrally these days, as there are effiencies doing it that way, and costs are shared across a large pool of people. But I am for a supercity because it is better than the current system where you have many tiny councils with so much duplication.

That is certainly true in the Wairarapa, where what should be one county council is handled by 3 disparate councils no bigger or more effective than a parish council.

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