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  Reply # 1307865 19-May-2015 16:17
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The world of GoT is not a nice place, bad things happen, and the show is written as such. The problem is that GoT has become wildly, stupidly popular outside it's original limited audience, and people now are upset that bad things happen and want a shiny happy rainbow version of GoT. 




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  Reply # 1307866 19-May-2015 16:21
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Nearly every week, GOT has a similarly shocking event.

Last week it was someone getting burned alive and eaten by a dragon.

The program has featured numerous brutalities e.g. amputations, genital mutilations, Tongue removals, burning alive etc..

Many of these events are shown in far more detail than the rape scene in the latest episode.

The program is mainly about brutality and people getting repeatedly captured while traveling.


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  Reply # 1307874 19-May-2015 16:34
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I've not read the books (my wife has) and we enjoy watching GOT - we eagerly await each new episode.

Last nights 'rape' scene albeit shocking, in the context of GOT Shock it was not that shocking.

We were waiting for Theon to snap, jump in and cut Ramsays throat... maybe that is how next week starts!

Now if only someone would kill Cersei!




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  Reply # 1307876 19-May-2015 16:42
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There are really two key points to deal with here.

"It wasn't in the books!"

 

Technically, it kinda was...  the TV show have combined the characters of Sansa Stark and her handmaiden Jeyne Poole.  (Jeyne Pool is a nobody until this season and has never been cast, and Sansa Stark does nothing this season.)  However, Ramsay needs to have a bride to continue his (and Reek's) story arcs, so on TV we have Sansa in the scenes where Jeyne Poole would be - with a bit of restructuring of things to make it all fit.  In the books, Ramsay treats his bride in an equivalent manner.  (the TV show actually significantly toned down the events that befell Jeyne in the book.)

"What is marriage in The Game of Thrones" (a.k.a. was it rape?)

 

George Martin makes a pretty significant effort to describe (among other things) the tradition of "the bedding" as part of a wedding in Westeros.  Essentially, the bride and groom are picked up by partygoers and carried up to the "honeymoon suite" being stripped of their clothes as they go.  They are then often observed consummating their marriage, and the resulting bloody linen then proudly displayed by the observers to the rest of the wedding guests as proof.  (of both the consummation, and of the bride's virginity)
Even in the absence of Myranda's dire warnings of how Ramsay treats women.  Even without the first-hand knowledge of what Ramsay has done to Theon/Reek.  Sansa would have absolutely known what she was signing up for when she made the decision to go to Winterfell to marry anybody.  (let alone a sadist such as Ramsay)
With the understanding of what was involved, Sansa still made the decision to go back to Winterfell.  She still made the decision to marry Ramsay.  She still made the decision to give him her virginity.

Given how much it cost her, you would imagine that she has some other motivation for placing herself into the position that she has.

Was it rape?  Certainly not in the context of the fantasy realm in which it occurred.
Would it be rape in modern society?  That would depend on whether or not you consider women who sleep with men that they dislike/hate in order to obtain something that they want (money, fame, stability, whatever) to be rape victims?

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  Reply # 1307883 19-May-2015 16:54
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people who were upset by GOT must have never watched Banshee.




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  Reply # 1307927 19-May-2015 18:42
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6FIEND: There are really two key points to deal with here.

"It wasn't in the books!"

 

Technically, it kinda was...  the TV show have combined the characters of Sansa Stark and her handmaiden Jeyne Poole.  (Jeyne Pool is a nobody until this season and has never been cast, and Sansa Stark does nothing this season.)  However, Ramsay needs to have a bride to continue his (and Reek's) story arcs, so on TV we have Sansa in the scenes where Jeyne Poole would be - with a bit of restructuring of things to make it all fit.  In the books, Ramsay treats his bride in an equivalent manner.  (the TV show actually significantly toned down the events that befell Jeyne in the book.)

"What is marriage in The Game of Thrones" (a.k.a. was it rape?)

 

George Martin makes a pretty significant effort to describe (among other things) the tradition of "the bedding" as part of a wedding in Westeros.  Essentially, the bride and groom are picked up by partygoers and carried up to the "honeymoon suite" being stripped of their clothes as they go.  They are then often observed consummating their marriage, and the resulting bloody linen then proudly displayed by the observers to the rest of the wedding guests as proof.  (of both the consummation, and of the bride's virginity)
Even in the absence of Myranda's dire warnings of how Ramsay treats women.  Even without the first-hand knowledge of what Ramsay has done to Theon/Reek.  Sansa would have absolutely known what she was signing up for when she made the decision to go to Winterfell to marry anybody.  (let alone a sadist such as Ramsay)
With the understanding of what was involved, Sansa still made the decision to go back to Winterfell.  She still made the decision to marry Ramsay.  She still made the decision to give him her virginity.

Given how much it cost her, you would imagine that she has some other motivation for placing herself into the position that she has.

Was it rape?  Certainly not in the context of the fantasy realm in which it occurred.
Would it be rape in modern society?  That would depend on whether or not you consider women who sleep with men that they dislike/hate in order to obtain something that they want (money, fame, stability, whatever) to be rape victims?

 


 

Your first point is what's really irking me. It was clearly in the books, and the only people who can deny it was in the books and didn't see this coming are likely the people who barely read the books at all, and were SHOCKED that Renly was gay or that Theon lost his manbits in a tragic mad-man accident.

 


 

Unfortunately outrage seems to be the hallmark of modern culture and it's always outrage over nothing. I would like nothing more than every single of one of these people who are complaining and whining without having a clue what they're on about (re: not the people who had a genuine reaction from a previous trauma) and are just harping on for the sake of harping on to sit down and watch A Clockwork Orange, and then listen to the outrage over that.

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  Reply # 1307945 19-May-2015 19:15
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networkn:

I am wondering about the ccontroversy of the latest episode, with people up in arms about the "rape" of Sansa Stark, saying they will no longer cover it in the press or such. Whilst I am in no way condoning sexual violence and find it abhorrent, I am wondering why people are upset by this episode?

The reasoning behind the question:

1) She got married by choice (Though admittedly she wasn't overly excited by the idea and seems to have done so for her country).
2) The guy made it very clear he expected sex out of the marriage. The hand maiden also made it pretty clear.
3) She at no point refused or said "no no no!", which I understand isn't the only way to refuse sex. He told her to undress which she started to do very slowly and with hesitance.
4) Her screams seem as likely due to pain/discomfort/surprise, which if he was rough and she was a virgin is pretty "normal"
5) Rough sex wouldn't be a particularly surprising element in this time and age. I believe his nature was clear before the marriage.
6) Seems if you are ok watching all the other bloody violence and sexual content of this series and have watched 5 seasons, you should really know what you are in for at this stage.

AGAIN I want to be clear I don't condone non consensual sex.


People get up in arms over all sorts of stuff these days - I suspect most of them have nothing better to do.

It's a fantasy novel brought to life. It has dragons incinerating and eating people, beheadings, gay sex and all sorts of other things bound to offend someone with a Twitter account and too many cans of Special Brew in the house.





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  Reply # 1307946 19-May-2015 19:18

toejam316:
6FIEND: There are really two key points to deal with here.

"It wasn't in the books!" Technically, it kinda was...  the TV show have combined the characters of Sansa Stark and her handmaiden Jeyne Poole.  (Jeyne Pool is a nobody until this season and has never been cast, and Sansa Stark does nothing this season.)  However, Ramsay needs to have a bride to continue his (and Reek's) story arcs, so on TV we have Sansa in the scenes where Jeyne Poole would be - with a bit of restructuring of things to make it all fit.  In the books, Ramsay treats his bride in an equivalent manner.  (the TV show actually significantly toned down the events that befell Jeyne in the book.)

"What is marriage in The Game of Thrones" (a.k.a. was it rape?)
George Martin makes a pretty significant effort to describe (among other things) the tradition of "the bedding" as part of a wedding in Westeros.  Essentially, the bride and groom are picked up by partygoers and carried up to the "honeymoon suite" being stripped of their clothes as they go.  They are then often observed consummating their marriage, and the resulting bloody linen then proudly displayed by the observers to the rest of the wedding guests as proof.  (of both the consummation, and of the bride's virginity)
Even in the absence of Myranda's dire warnings of how Ramsay treats women.  Even without the first-hand knowledge of what Ramsay has done to Theon/Reek.  Sansa would have absolutely known what she was signing up for when she made the decision to go to Winterfell to marry anybody.  (let alone a sadist such as Ramsay)
With the understanding of what was involved, Sansa still made the decision to go back to Winterfell.  She still made the decision to marry Ramsay.  She still made the decision to give him her virginity.

Given how much it cost her, you would imagine that she has some other motivation for placing herself into the position that she has.

Was it rape?  Certainly not in the context of the fantasy realm in which it occurred.
Would it be rape in modern society?  That would depend on whether or not you consider women who sleep with men that they dislike/hate in order to obtain something that they want (money, fame, stability, whatever) to be rape victims?

Your first point is what's really irking me. It was clearly in the books, and the only people who can deny it was in the books and didn't see this coming are likely the people who barely read the books at all, and were SHOCKED that Renly was gay or that Theon lost his manbits in a tragic mad-man accident.
Unfortunately outrage seems to be the hallmark of modern culture and it's always outrage over nothing. I would like nothing more than every single of one of these people who are complaining and whining without having a clue what they're on about (re: not the people who had a genuine reaction from a previous trauma) and are just harping on for the sake of harping on to sit down and watch A Clockwork Orange, and then listen to the outrage over that.


Theon didn't lose his manbits in an accident.

Ramsay cut them off as torture.

Then he pretended to eat it. But, he was really eating a sausage.

What a kidder!

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  Reply # 1307949 19-May-2015 19:21
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Lias: The world of GoT is not a nice place, bad things happen, and the show is written as such. The problem is that GoT has become wildly, stupidly popular outside it's original limited audience, and people now are upset that bad things happen and want a shiny happy rainbow version of GoT. 


"Sansa! Come and look! I have brought you a unicorn!" said Ramsay.

"Oh darling - how wonderful! And thank you for my kitten - he is just purrrfect!"

Sansa swooned as Ramsay swept her into his strong arms.

"Reek, old friend - be a dear and ask the staff (who we employ on more than minimum wage and are not slaves at all, oh no) to bring a picnic! Lady Sansa and I shall go for a unicorn ride to the magic lake and make love (within the context of a loving relationship based on an equal partnership without gender-stereotypical roles) in the sunshine before nasty old winter gets here! It's coming, you know!"

(Exit riding unicorns, on a rainbow road smelling of summer blooms...)





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  Reply # 1307951 19-May-2015 19:22
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JWR:
toejam316:
6FIEND: There are really two key points to deal with here.

"It wasn't in the books!" Technically, it kinda was...  the TV show have combined the characters of Sansa Stark and her handmaiden Jeyne Poole.  (Jeyne Pool is a nobody until this season and has never been cast, and Sansa Stark does nothing this season.)  However, Ramsay needs to have a bride to continue his (and Reek's) story arcs, so on TV we have Sansa in the scenes where Jeyne Poole would be - with a bit of restructuring of things to make it all fit.  In the books, Ramsay treats his bride in an equivalent manner.  (the TV show actually significantly toned down the events that befell Jeyne in the book.)

"What is marriage in The Game of Thrones" (a.k.a. was it rape?)
George Martin makes a pretty significant effort to describe (among other things) the tradition of "the bedding" as part of a wedding in Westeros.  Essentially, the bride and groom are picked up by partygoers and carried up to the "honeymoon suite" being stripped of their clothes as they go.  They are then often observed consummating their marriage, and the resulting bloody linen then proudly displayed by the observers to the rest of the wedding guests as proof.  (of both the consummation, and of the bride's virginity)
Even in the absence of Myranda's dire warnings of how Ramsay treats women.  Even without the first-hand knowledge of what Ramsay has done to Theon/Reek.  Sansa would have absolutely known what she was signing up for when she made the decision to go to Winterfell to marry anybody.  (let alone a sadist such as Ramsay)
With the understanding of what was involved, Sansa still made the decision to go back to Winterfell.  She still made the decision to marry Ramsay.  She still made the decision to give him her virginity.

Given how much it cost her, you would imagine that she has some other motivation for placing herself into the position that she has.

Was it rape?  Certainly not in the context of the fantasy realm in which it occurred.
Would it be rape in modern society?  That would depend on whether or not you consider women who sleep with men that they dislike/hate in order to obtain something that they want (money, fame, stability, whatever) to be rape victims?

Your first point is what's really irking me. It was clearly in the books, and the only people who can deny it was in the books and didn't see this coming are likely the people who barely read the books at all, and were SHOCKED that Renly was gay or that Theon lost his manbits in a tragic mad-man accident.
Unfortunately outrage seems to be the hallmark of modern culture and it's always outrage over nothing. I would like nothing more than every single of one of these people who are complaining and whining without having a clue what they're on about (re: not the people who had a genuine reaction from a previous trauma) and are just harping on for the sake of harping on to sit down and watch A Clockwork Orange, and then listen to the outrage over that.


Theon didn't lose his manbits in an accident.

Ramsay cut them off as torture.

Then he pretended to eat it. But, he was really eating a sausage.

What a kidder!


Gets 'em every time...!





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  Reply # 1307955 19-May-2015 19:24
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Theon didn't lose his manbits in an accident.

Ramsay cut them off as torture.

Then he pretended to eat it. But, he was really eating a sausage.

What a kidder!

 


 

You missed the mad-man bit. This mad-man accident was that he accidentally got caught by a mad-man.

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  Reply # 1308007 19-May-2015 21:05
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I just watched it over dinner with my girlfriend.

The final "rape" scene in terms of graphic content (especially in comparison to previous episodes) was snore-worthy at best.

I feel even more vindicated in my assumption that people are simply having a hard time finding stuff to fill their Facebook walls with these days.  The stupidity of it all is that this episode in particular will probably go down as one of the most popular because of this non-event.

Well done herald, well done.
*slow clap*





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  Reply # 1308042 19-May-2015 22:10
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DravidDavid: 

The final "rape" scene in terms of graphic content (especially in comparison to previous episodes) was snore-worthy at best.



I just watched it too - and agree.
It had been talked-up as if it was erotic and violent - truly crossing a line.  Nope.

The character Ramsay Bolton reminds me (facial expression, accent/manner of speech, and demeanor) of Alex (Malcolm McDowell) in A Clockwork Orange.  That movie from more than 40 years ago contained a far more graphic and violent rape scene, and in context (a dystopian yet somewhat believable near future) is far more disturbing in every way than GOT's dystopian fairy-tale set in some non-existent place and time.


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  Reply # 1308045 19-May-2015 22:12
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Anybody who is offended by the content of the latest episode is best described as a 'bell end'.

Seriously, there have been many many more scenes far worse than the rape scene. It's just now more people are watching it so there are many more nancy's watching it just waiting to be offended.

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  Reply # 1308100 20-May-2015 00:14
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So, it seems I'm the only person who found the scene disturbing? That disturbs me more than the scene itself...

First, I have read the books (for the record, no this didn't happen to Sansa in the books, it happening to Sansa has a great deal more emotional import and the distinction is very relevant).  Second, let me be clear that I am not outraged or anything here.

The argument that similarly shocking things happen all the time in this show is utter bollocks. Graphic depictions of dragons eating people and all the usual gore does not rate alongside a depiction of sexual violence, juxtaposed with a side of psychological torture. If you could watch this scene with no discomfort or even some sense of disquiet, then I honestly don't know where your head is at.

In relation to whether this was rape or not? Yes, it was rape. Unequivocally it was rape. A common argument here seems to be that this would be commonplace in this fictional world, and would not be viewed as rape by many of the inhabitants of this world - that does not make it not rape. That appeal is akin to cultural relativism, and you can only ride that ticket so far before you're just wrong. It's essentially irrelevant to the question of whether it was rape regardless, because *we* should know that it is rape. 

networkn: The reasoning behind the question:

1) She got married by choice (Though admittedly she wasn't overly excited by the idea and seems to have done so for her country).
2) The guy made it very clear he expected sex out of the marriage. The hand maiden also made it pretty clear.
3) She at no point refused or said "no no no!", which I understand isn't the only way to refuse sex. He told her to undress which she started to do very slowly and with hesitance.
4) Her screams seem as likely due to pain/discomfort/surprise, which if he was rough and she was a virgin is pretty "normal"
5) Rough sex wouldn't be a particularly surprising element in this time and age. I believe his nature was clear before the marriage.
6) Seems if you are ok watching all the other bloody violence and sexual content of this series and have watched 5 seasons, you should really know what you are in for at this stage.


In relation to this, you are going to seriously contend that she had real alternatives to the choices she made? Consent under duress is not consent, that shouldn't be news to anyone, but it seems to be escaping the grasp of people commenting here. If I hold you at gunpoint and sodomize you while forcing you mother to watch, your position would be that this wouldn't constitute rape because you could have chosen to be shot instead, you were clear it was going to be rough beforehand, and we should understand that rough sex shouldn't be particularly surprising in this time and age? Naturally your screams could be considered pretty normal under the circumstances, so we shouldn't take it from them that the act constitutes rape. You're a bright guy, you can't see how stupid your reasoning is?

It dismays me that a bunch of guys can come here and have a total consensus on this, but it hardly shocks given the challenge societies across the world have on their hands in addressing rape culture. 

Although I'm not coming from a place of histrionic outrage or anything here, I can virtually count down the seconds until someone in this thread starts crying "PC gone mad" as a means of dismissing what I'm saying rather than truly attempting to reflect on their position or engage in a meaningful discussion. 






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