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  Reply # 1308130 20-May-2015 08:12
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PC gone mad! :-P




Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


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  Reply # 1308132 20-May-2015 08:19
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garvani:
networkn:
It seems likely to me, that he will get revenge and it's gonna be terrible. Don't spoil it for me.

That scene wasn't in the books at all (from what ive been told), apparently this season has gone on some weird tangent as far as the source material is concerned.

Well, there is a Bolton/Stark wedding scene in the books but it was nothing like this. This was one of the examples of how much further apart the books and TV series are getting with each season. In the books, Ramsay marries a girl we haven't seen since the first book (Season 1) who they claim to be Arya (not Sansa). And the wedding night is very much worse than what was portrayed in this week's TV episode...

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  Reply # 1308147 20-May-2015 08:42
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NZtechfreak: So, it seems I'm the only person who found the scene disturbing? That disturbs me more than the scene itself...

First, I have read the books (for the record, no this didn't happen to Sansa in the books, it happening to Sansa has a great deal more emotional import and the distinction is very relevant).  Second, let me be clear that I am not outraged or anything here.

The argument that similarly shocking things happen all the time in this show is utter bollocks. Graphic depictions of dragons eating people and all the usual gore does not rate alongside a depiction of sexual violence, juxtaposed with a side of psychological torture. If you could watch this scene with no discomfort or even some sense of disquiet, then I honestly don't know where your head is at.

In relation to whether this was rape or not? Yes, it was rape. Unequivocally it was rape. A common argument here seems to be that this would be commonplace in this fictional world, and would not be viewed as rape by many of the inhabitants of this world - that does not make it not rape. That appeal is akin to cultural relativism, and you can only ride that ticket so far before you're just wrong. It's essentially irrelevant to the question of whether it was rape regardless, because *we* should know that it is rape. 

networkn: The reasoning behind the question:

1) She got married by choice (Though admittedly she wasn't overly excited by the idea and seems to have done so for her country).
2) The guy made it very clear he expected sex out of the marriage. The hand maiden also made it pretty clear.
3) She at no point refused or said "no no no!", which I understand isn't the only way to refuse sex. He told her to undress which she started to do very slowly and with hesitance.
4) Her screams seem as likely due to pain/discomfort/surprise, which if he was rough and she was a virgin is pretty "normal"
5) Rough sex wouldn't be a particularly surprising element in this time and age. I believe his nature was clear before the marriage.
6) Seems if you are ok watching all the other bloody violence and sexual content of this series and have watched 5 seasons, you should really know what you are in for at this stage.


In relation to this, you are going to seriously contend that she had real alternatives to the choices she made? Consent under duress is not consent, that shouldn't be news to anyone, but it seems to be escaping the grasp of people commenting here. If I hold you at gunpoint and sodomize you while forcing you mother to watch, your position would be that this wouldn't constitute rape because you could have chosen to be shot instead, you were clear it was going to be rough beforehand, and we should understand that rough sex shouldn't be particularly surprising in this time and age? Naturally your screams could be considered pretty normal under the circumstances, so we shouldn't take it from them that the act constitutes rape. You're a bright guy, you can't see how stupid your reasoning is?

It dismays me that a bunch of guys can come here and have a total consensus on this, but it hardly shocks given the challenge societies across the world have on their hands in addressing rape culture. 

Although I'm not coming from a place of histrionic outrage or anything here, I can virtually count down the seconds until someone in this thread starts crying "PC gone mad" as a means of dismissing what I'm saying rather than truly attempting to reflect on their position or engage in a meaningful discussion. 




No, you're not the only one.

You've nailed it.

I like this show. I will continue to watch it.

Of course she was raped, good grief. Excellent analogy.

The violence and genital mutilation may be a fact of life in some cultures doesn't mean it isn't violence and isn't genital mutilation and doesn't make it ok.

Am I also disturbed by the violence against males in this show? Yes, especially against Theon. It was very drawn out over numerous episodes and had me commenting to my husband numerous times that I wish they would end it already, we got the point. For the record I fast forwarded through the prison scene on Outlander. Having read it in the book, I knew what was coming. So I haven't seen it.

Why do I think people find this scene with Sansa particularly disturbing? Because sexual assault against primarily women is still relatively common place and I think there is room for the argument that repeated viewing of it normalises it. Like the concerns about young males viewing degrading pornography are a concern now because it is so much easier to get access to so much more of it than it used to be thanks to the Internet. Compare the rape scene to scenes where dragons kill people, or heads are cut off with swords, which is more clearly the realm of fiction (like super powers or villains like The Joker or the violence in The Kingsmen) which is why there is less concern about that violence when it is depicted.

I also find it very disturbing that anyone could have the opinion that what Sansa underwent was consensual. Really, you think she would have chosen to have her clothes torn off and had pain inflicted on her to the point she screamed if she could have chosen otherwise? If it hadn't been an act of dominant aggression would Theon have been so upset?

And I know this comment won't be popular, but oh well. I also think as a male you may have less understanding of the dangers women have lurking around them all the time. As the physically weaker sex we must be far more careful of where we walk, when etc. as we are more vulnerable and it certainly does curtail our freedom (maybe it's just reporting by the media but violence against young males being attacked violently on the streets in the last couple years seems to have escalated too and I do feel for those men). As a male growing up I doubt you had the same awareness of the inequality of 'power' I did as a female and it does still exist. I also had some close calls with strangers as a very young child. To be more specific, one with my grandparent's neighbour's son- I would have been between four and five. I don't think I was old enough to be at school. He was probably a teen. Strong enough to pick me up, which he did. One when I was maybe nine with a random, male, middle aged stranger in a car a block from our house. A couple (two or three) as a pre-teen. I'm not counting mutual exploration playing doctor stuff- some were clearly cases where police should have been involved but I didn't even understand what had happened until I was older. Another incident happened right under my parent's noses by someone they had invited over. And I grew up in a very middle class, relatively safe, close knit community.

All those incidences could have ended far worse than they did, more by dumb luck than anything. But there are less obvious examples of the difference between how males and females are treated unequally in my life which are faaar too numerous to list here. And they still happen to me even today. The last was less than six months ago. I doubt your opinion has ever been discounted just because you were a male. And no, I have not misconstrued these events. Happily these incidences have reduced as society evolves, probably helped by the sphere of society I engage with. And I always count myself lucky when I meet men who take me as their complete equal. But the fact I even notice should tell you something.

Less than two years ago a very young women in the town I live in was literally dragged by her hair off the street in the small hours of the morning by a man as she returned home and raped. More recently, a couple months ago women in a fairly busy little town nearby were sexually assaulted while walking downtown in broad daylight on more than one occasion (different women). This kind of stuff is happening all the time.

I won't even bother with the historical disparity- voting rights, property ownership, inheritance laws, wage disparity, the glass ceiling...

Also, because a lot of you may have been brought up by good families in relative middle class environments you may have not witnessed or engaged in the physical and mental domination of females by males directly, or sexism making it seem less likely or real to you.

I've also witnessed domestic violence within my family -male to female- and have seen the aftermath at a women and children's crisis centre where I worked during university.

I'm not sure men can totally understand, any more than I can understand growing up black in the U.S. All you can do is get a glimpse of it, like I did on some occasions when I visited New York and the Southern U.S.

So yes, I think people have a reason to get wound up about this and to discuss it.



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  Reply # 1308148 20-May-2015 08:42
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NZtechfreak: Snip



I think you're missing the point that at least I feel is obvious. In the context of the events of the book and show, this scene is suitable, appropriate, and definitely serves a purpose. And if you had been following the show, you'd know that awful things tend to happen. With all this rape culture nonsense being spouted, there's a reenforcement of the normialisation of violence, and almost always like clockwork people come flying out in a consensus of shock and outrage as soon as a woman is the target.


The best bit about all this is that if people were following the show, they would have been outraged about the whole plot between Tyrion and Shae, but no such outrage has yet appeared.


Edit: In regards to the post above mine - yes, things aren't great, no things aren't going to suddenly become great, but the reality is that the people who are going to take away from this that yes, actually, are is pretty cool are the people who are also taking away things like man, how awesome would it be to stab someone. What I trying to say? Any sane and sound minded person isn't going to be endorsing rape, and this scene isn't likely to change their opinion. Not everything on TV is an endorsement.

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  Reply # 1308150 20-May-2015 08:43
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andrew027:
garvani:
networkn:
It seems likely to me, that he will get revenge and it's gonna be terrible. Don't spoil it for me.

That scene wasn't in the books at all (from what ive been told), apparently this season has gone on some weird tangent as far as the source material is concerned.

Well, there is a Bolton/Stark wedding scene in the books but it was nothing like this. This was one of the examples of how much further apart the books and TV series are getting with each season. In the books, Ramsay marries a girl we haven't seen since the first book (Season 1) who they claim to be Arya (not Sansa). And the wedding night is very much worse than what was portrayed in this week's TV episode...


I like the simplification of the story. Makes for better TV.

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  Reply # 1308218 20-May-2015 09:58
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This is a great post by NZtechfreak.  I don't agree with all of it however, so I will just address a few points.

NZtechfreak: So, it seems I'm the only person who found the scene disturbing? That disturbs me more than the scene itself...


Personally, I found the scene incredibly disturbing.  (Perhaps even more so than I might have if they had depicted the event explicitly - sometimes things that remain unsaid carry the most weight!)

NZtechfreak: First, I have read the books (for the record, no this didn't happen to Sansa in the books, it happening to Sansa has a great deal more emotional import and the distinction is very relevant).  Second, let me be clear that I am not outraged or anything here.


I agree.  Although what occurred to Sansa was significantly less horrific and gruesome than what occurred to the character in the novels, the fact that the audience is emotionally invested in Sansa's character means that the scene achieves a similar level of discomfort on-screen without having to either depict beastiality, or maim another character to such an extent that she would never go out in public again.  (as per the source material)

NZtechfreak: [snip]
In relation to this, you are going to seriously contend that she had real alternatives to the choices she made? Consent under duress is not consent, that shouldn't be news to anyone, but it seems to be escaping the grasp of people commenting here. If I hold you at gunpoint and sodomize you while forcing you mother to watch, your position would be that this wouldn't constitute rape because you could have chosen to be shot instead, you were clear it was going to be rough beforehand, and we should understand that rough sex shouldn't be particularly surprising in this time and age? Naturally your screams could be considered pretty normal under the circumstances, so we shouldn't take it from them that the act constitutes rape. You're a bright guy, you can't see how stupid your reasoning is?


Here I disagree on a key point, and I believe that your analogy is fallacious.

Sansa absolutely consented to this course of events.  She did so under absolutely no duress whatsoever.  This occurred when Littlefinger laid out her options to her (as he saw them) on their approach to Winterfell, and asked her to "make her choice".  She chose a marriage to Ramsay Bolton (and all the "bedding" that that would entail) as her preferred strategy.  Arguably, she even has a "safe word" for her chosen journey in the form of "a candle lit in the broken tower" that will see Brienne rushing to her aid.

A better analogy (rather than buggery at gunpoint) would be that you're having trouble peeing.  You make the decision to see a doctor.  You know that the doctor will expect to examine your prostate gland by digitally penetrating you.  You know that this will make you extremely uncomfortable, and that it will potentially be painful.  When this occurs, have you been sexually assaulted?  Would it make is sexual assault if the doctor's intern needed to observe the procedure?   What if he invited the intern to "feel this mass here" while you were bent over the table?  Would it make it sexual assault if the doctor got impatient with you fumbling with your belt, tore your pants down, and completed the examination?  What if he refused to wear gloves or use lubrication? 

I think you can see the point that I'm trying to make.  Rape is not a black and white matter that fits neatly into preconceived compartments.  It's much more contextual than that.

However, with that said - there is no question (in my mind) that Sansa was raped, and will likely be raped repeatedly for the foreseeable future.  The distinction is that Sansa knowingly and willingly chose to subject herself to this abuse in the belief that it will advance her position in the long term.



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  Reply # 1308231 20-May-2015 10:12
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6FIEND: This is a great post by NZtechfreak.  I don't agree with all of it however, so I will just address a few points.

NZtechfreak: So, it seems I'm the only person who found the scene disturbing? That disturbs me more than the scene itself...


Personally, I found the scene incredibly disturbing.  (Perhaps even more so than I might have if they had depicted the event explicitly - sometimes things that remain unsaid carry the most weight!)

NZtechfreak: First, I have read the books (for the record, no this didn't happen to Sansa in the books, it happening to Sansa has a great deal more emotional import and the distinction is very relevant).  Second, let me be clear that I am not outraged or anything here.


I agree.  Although what occurred to Sansa was significantly less horrific and gruesome than what occurred to the character in the novels, the fact that the audience is emotionally invested in Sansa's character means that the scene achieves a similar level of discomfort on-screen without having to either depict beastiality, or maim another character to such an extent that she would never go out in public again.  (as per the source material)

NZtechfreak: [snip]
In relation to this, you are going to seriously contend that she had real alternatives to the choices she made? Consent under duress is not consent, that shouldn't be news to anyone, but it seems to be escaping the grasp of people commenting here. If I hold you at gunpoint and sodomize you while forcing you mother to watch, your position would be that this wouldn't constitute rape because you could have chosen to be shot instead, you were clear it was going to be rough beforehand, and we should understand that rough sex shouldn't be particularly surprising in this time and age? Naturally your screams could be considered pretty normal under the circumstances, so we shouldn't take it from them that the act constitutes rape. You're a bright guy, you can't see how stupid your reasoning is?


Here I disagree on a key point, and I believe that your analogy is fallacious.

Sansa absolutely consented to this course of events.  She did so under absolutely no duress whatsoever.  This occurred when Littlefinger laid out her options to her (as he saw them) on their approach to Winterfell, and asked her to "make her choice".  She chose a marriage to Ramsay Bolton (and all the "bedding" that that would entail) as her preferred strategy.  Arguably, she even has a "safe word" for her chosen journey in the form of "a candle lit in the broken tower" that will see Brienne rushing to her aid.

A better analogy (rather than buggery at gunpoint) would be that you're having trouble peeing.  You make the decision to see a doctor.  You know that the doctor will expect to examine your prostate gland by digitally penetrating you.  You know that this will make you extremely uncomfortable, and that it will potentially be painful.  When this occurs, have you been sexually assaulted?  Would it make is sexual assault if the doctor's intern needed to observe the procedure?   What if he invited the intern to "feel this mass here" while you were bent over the table?  Would it make it sexual assault if the doctor got impatient with you fumbling with your belt, tore your pants down, and completed the examination?  What if he refused to wear gloves or use lubrication? 

I think you can see the point that I'm trying to make.  Rape is not a black and white matter that fits neatly into preconceived compartments.  It's much more contextual than that.

However, with that said - there is no question (in my mind) that Sansa was raped, and will likely be raped repeatedly for the foreseeable future.  The distinction is that Sansa knowingly and willingly chose to subject herself to this abuse in the belief that it will advance her position in the long term.


Thank you, I was trying to find a way to reply to that post but was struggling to find words that explained it as well as you did. 

I disagree about whether it was rape (Because of the path she chose) but I can see both perspectives and can see how others could potentially draw another conclusion. (Though I can't say I was thrilled to have NZTF suggest my reasoning was "stupid").

I also did find the scene disturbing but more for Theon, who I feel has endured more than I believe the human mind could endure. I fully expected Sansa was going to find the experience pretty unpleasant, it was made very clear almost the entire way through the episode. 

NZTF seems to me to intimating that if you didn't find this scene shocking to your core, you are ok with women being raped and sexually assaulted which for the record, despite making clear TWICE in my OP, isn't the case in the slightest way. There is a BIG difference between a fictional series which has a lot of Sexual and Violent "activity" and being ok with it in real life, or finding it acceptable in today's society. I think most people could make this distinction and have no prejudice against women, and those who can't, likely aren't going to have their views changed or influenced by a TV series.

I also don't feel it fair to apply todays views on what constitutes rape, retrospectively, as I don't believe it would have been considered "rape" back then. Do you think if Sansa went to the local constabulary after the events of that night and suggested she was "raped" it would have even CONSIDERED for investigation?


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  Reply # 1308313 20-May-2015 11:12
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As I sometimes have to say to Er Indoors....

"Calm down. It's not real."





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  Reply # 1308331 20-May-2015 11:28
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toejam316:
NZtechfreak: Snip



I think you're missing the point that at least I feel is obvious. In the context of the events of the book and show, this scene is suitable, appropriate, and definitely serves a purpose. And if you had been following the show, you'd know that awful things tend to happen. With all this rape culture nonsense being spouted, there's a reenforcement of the normialisation of violence, and almost always like clockwork people come flying out in a consensus of shock and outrage as soon as a woman is the target.


No, I haven't missed that at all. I was responding to the question of whether it was rape, which is undeniably was.

toejam316: I think you're missing the point that at least I feel is obvious. In the context of the events of the book and show, this scene is suitable, appropriate, and definitely serves a purpose. And if you had been following the show, you'd know that awful things tend to happen.


I agree that within the confines of this fictional world this occurring is consistent. That said, what exactly is the vital purpose of the scene to the show, in your mind?

I think even beyond "did it serve a purpose?" you have to ask was the scene necessary to this purpose? If not necessary then I would say the scene was gratuitous. Would you not? I would contend it isn't necessary, particularly if you follow the show. As a follower of the show, did you need to actually see that to know that Bolton is a depraved f&(? Did you actually need to see the scene to know that Sansa was going to be raped and abused that night? No and no. If they felt they really have such a thick audience on their hands that they really did need to spell it out (and in fairness if I was pitching a show to an American television audience I just might think that), it still could have been done much less gratuitously. Imagine a shot through the open door, Theon walks toward the camera to leave the room and over his shoulder we see and hear Bolton give the 'you stay and watch' line. He looks stricken and closes the door on the camera ending the scene. Next scene fades in, it's daylight and Sansa lies on a bed, obviously psychologically traumatised with bruises/cuts to her torso exposed through the tatters of the torn wedding dress that she clutches to herself. Pan to Theon rocking himself on the floor in distress. Point made without subjecting the audience to that scene.

toejam316: With all this rape culture nonsense being spouted


Rape culture is nonsense? Oh my. The privilege that privileged people enjoy is often invisible to them, as JayADee alludes to in her post. Are you a man? I suspect you are, given it would be unusual in the extreme for a woman to deny the existence of rape culture. If you are, have you ever paused to reflect the privilege you enjoy because you are a man? If you are white, have you ever paused to consider the privilege that grants you in society? If you are straight, have you ever paused to consider the privilege that grants you? Perhaps not. Most here at Geekzone are amongst the most privileged members of society - straight white affluent men - and yet quite often here at Geekzone people of privilege try to assert that somehow they are less privileged than minorities, or even actually disadvantaged in comparison by efforts to redress inequalities in society. Ridiculous, but that is the extent of how invisible their privilege is to them. The fact that anyone could seriously contend that this did not constitute rape very adroitly proves the point that rape culture exists.

To go back to the initial point you made, speaking to whether the furore is warranted, I am always interested to note here at Geekzone that so many feel they are the arbiters of what other people can find offensive. I mean, as members of group with special privileges in relation to the subject at hand, if we're not offended by something then it is invalid for everyone else to be right? If others were offended then they are "nancies" "bell-ends" or "PC gone mad". If you were a victim of sexual assault do you think you might relate differently to that scene? If you worked with victims of sexual violence, do you think you might relate differently to that scene? Given the scene was gratuitous, I would say a great many people have every reason to feel affronted by the scene and to be vocal about that.




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  Reply # 1308336 20-May-2015 11:35
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one reason (I suspect) why more people are outraged at this compared to the many other nasty things that happen is that Sansa is totally innocent.  Viewers like to see 'good' people win, and 'bad' people get their comeuppance.

She's naive, yes, but really is one of the few major characters who isn't a manipulative murdering scumbag.  We've watched her be humiliated and beaten through the seasons, moved from place to place, used as a bargaining chip, watched her reactions as her family have been murdered one by one, forced to marry (twice!)  Throughout all of that she has done virtually nothing nasty, spending most of her time praying to the gods.

Her absolute worst crime was lying to the lords of the vale about what happened when Littlefinger killed her Aunt (who by the way was crazy and had just tried to kill her)

In viewers minds, Shae, by comparison, is, and always was a hooker.  She was manipulative, vindictive towards Tyrion when he tried to keep her safe.  She was also a grown adult.  Sansa is supposed to be about 17 I think by this point.
Or take Theon.  He was tortured over the course of an entire season, having his fingers cut off, partially skinned, and his penis cut off. But it's not as hard for the viewers to accept since he was also a douchebag who murdered a bunch of people just to please his father.

also,  by the standard of 'forced sex in an arranged marriage'  Khaleesi was raped in S1 by Khal Drogo (and at that point she was also young and innocent) - and we actually got to see it happen - bewbs and all.



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  Reply # 1308344 20-May-2015 11:47
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6FIEND: 
Here I disagree on a key point, and I believe that your analogy is fallacious.

Sansa absolutely consented to this course of events.  She did so under absolutely no duress whatsoever.  This occurred when Littlefinger laid out her options to her (as he saw them) on their approach to Winterfell, and asked her to "make her choice".  She chose a marriage to Ramsay Bolton (and all the "bedding" that that would entail) as her preferred strategy.  Arguably, she even has a "safe word" for her chosen journey in the form of "a candle lit in the broken tower" that will see Brienne rushing to her aid.

A better analogy (rather than buggery at gunpoint) would be that you're having trouble peeing.  You make the decision to see a doctor.  You know that the doctor will expect to examine your prostate gland by digitally penetrating you.  You know that this will make you extremely uncomfortable, and that it will potentially be painful.  When this occurs, have you been sexually assaulted?  Would it make is sexual assault if the doctor's intern needed to observe the procedure?   What if he invited the intern to "feel this mass here" while you were bent over the table?  Would it make it sexual assault if the doctor got impatient with you fumbling with your belt, tore your pants down, and completed the examination?  What if he refused to wear gloves or use lubrication? 

I think you can see the point that I'm trying to make.  Rape is not a black and white matter that fits neatly into preconceived compartments.  It's much more contextual than that.

However, with that said - there is no question (in my mind) that Sansa was raped, and will likely be raped repeatedly for the foreseeable future.  The distinction is that Sansa knowingly and willingly chose to subject herself to this abuse in the belief that it will advance her position in the long term.


You really think Sansa had the freedom to make other choices, really? Disagree completely. She was manipulated by Littlefinger, and once at Winterfell had absolutely no recourse to alter her course. She could not refuse. Let me repeat that: she could not refuse. Is that not clear to everyone? Additionally, she did not know that Bolton was sick - Littlefinger of course almost certainly did, so again, her "decision" was not made from a position of informed consent and while she would of course have known that this course would entail sex, she did not know the depths to which her abuse might extend. I would say in any case the decision offered to her by Littlefinger was loaded. I mean, do you trust that Littlefinger wouldn't have simply handed her over even if she did not agree? Should she? I disagree that her decision there was freely made in the manner in which you suggest. Consenting to the marriage in any case does not imply consent to be raped, whether that was a reasonable expectation of the marriage or not.

I think my analogy works because it conveys the appropriate lack of real choice available to the victom. In relation to the example with the doctor - if an intern was asked to conduct an examination of that kind without explicit consent, then that absolutely constitutes an assault on the patients person. The intern cannot even be present during the examination without prior consent (I am a doctor, in case you weren't aware). Refusing to wear gloves or use lubrication would be a significant departure from practice norms, in the event of a complaint the offending doctor would be rightly hung out to dry. Not wearing gloves in sensitive examinations is almost certainly a flag that the examination was an abuse according to our professional standards. Read the Cartwright Inquiry and/or related reports from the office of the Health and Disability Commissioner if those points aren't clear to you.




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  Reply # 1308397 20-May-2015 12:13
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NZtechfreak: Snip



Yes, I'm a straight white male but in this context is doesn't matter a whole tonne - the reason why I say the rape culture thing is nonsense is because western culture is far from a rape culture, if you want to see that sort of thing I suggest some of the smaller Arabic countries could help enlighten you. Is there inequality? Yes. Are there people working towards ending it? Yes. Problems don't resolve over night, but they certainly don't resolve when they're turned into us vs them situations.


Now then, spoilers for non-book readers, here be dragons for this next paragraph. Skip it if you haven't read A Dance With Dragons. This scene is actually vital in terms of narrative for Theon to reclaim himself from Ramsey Bolton. From here on in the book Reek starts to break down, his rhymes become less fluid and his identity returns. This leads to him rebelling and helping Jeyne escape the horrors Ramsey inflicted on her (did I mention there is implied to be beastiality, or that Reek was made to do sexual things to her barring the obvious inabilities, and things like that? Much worse than what's shown in the show). With Jeyne's plot being merged into Sansa's, this is literally the only person Theon pities and feels enough for to risk rebellion. So, it had to be done unless you can think of a better way that doesn't compromise the plot of the story. Unfortunately your depiction wouldn't have enough heft for this, and wouldn't mesh with the rest of the show we've seen and are going to see.


As for the question of if we have the right to decide who's silly for being offended, you should surely know that just like the offended, we're expressing our opinions too. There's no special agency that will enforce my opinion upon others because I sit higher in the privledge ladder. If there was I would probably be a much nastier person for it, so I'm glad there isn't.


Edit: RE Your post above, it is definitely rape, she didn't have a swathe of options, but she did know who Ramsey (AKA The Bastard of Bolton) was and what he was. His reputation has been well known in the North, and then there's the fact he's son of Roose Bolton, head of a house who's banner is the flayed man. The bloke who killed her Mother and Brother in the most dishonourable way. The Bolton's aren't a surprise to her.

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  Reply # 1308400 20-May-2015 12:18
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Honestly I found the incestly groping of Daenerys and her sale to Khal Drogo more disturbing than this scene, let alone the slavers, the unsullied, Varys's backstory, where is the outrage over the incest, child sex, genital mutilation, child bride, human trafficking issues raised by them? Is rape bad? of course it is, but is this particular rape really so terrible in comparison to all the other bad bad things in Game of Thrones? No, I really don't think so. 






Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


JWR

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  Reply # 1308412 20-May-2015 12:29

NZtechfreak: So, it seems I'm the only person who found the scene disturbing? That disturbs me more than the scene itself...

First, I have read the books (for the record, no this didn't happen to Sansa in the books, it happening to Sansa has a great deal more emotional import and the distinction is very relevant).  Second, let me be clear that I am not outraged or anything here.

The argument that similarly shocking things happen all the time in this show is utter bollocks. Graphic depictions of dragons eating people and all the usual gore does not rate alongside a depiction of sexual violence, juxtaposed with a side of psychological torture. If you could watch this scene with no discomfort or even some sense of disquiet, then I honestly don't know where your head is at.

In relation to whether this was rape or not? Yes, it was rape. Unequivocally it was rape. A common argument here seems to be that this would be commonplace in this fictional world, and would not be viewed as rape by many of the inhabitants of this world - that does not make it not rape. That appeal is akin to cultural relativism, and you can only ride that ticket so far before you're just wrong. It's essentially irrelevant to the question of whether it was rape regardless, because *we* should know that it is rape. 

networkn: The reasoning behind the question:

1) She got married by choice (Though admittedly she wasn't overly excited by the idea and seems to have done so for her country).
2) The guy made it very clear he expected sex out of the marriage. The hand maiden also made it pretty clear.
3) She at no point refused or said "no no no!", which I understand isn't the only way to refuse sex. He told her to undress which she started to do very slowly and with hesitance.
4) Her screams seem as likely due to pain/discomfort/surprise, which if he was rough and she was a virgin is pretty "normal"
5) Rough sex wouldn't be a particularly surprising element in this time and age. I believe his nature was clear before the marriage.
6) Seems if you are ok watching all the other bloody violence and sexual content of this series and have watched 5 seasons, you should really know what you are in for at this stage.


In relation to this, you are going to seriously contend that she had real alternatives to the choices she made? Consent under duress is not consent, that shouldn't be news to anyone, but it seems to be escaping the grasp of people commenting here. If I hold you at gunpoint and sodomize you while forcing you mother to watch, your position would be that this wouldn't constitute rape because you could have chosen to be shot instead, you were clear it was going to be rough beforehand, and we should understand that rough sex shouldn't be particularly surprising in this time and age? Naturally your screams could be considered pretty normal under the circumstances, so we shouldn't take it from them that the act constitutes rape. You're a bright guy, you can't see how stupid your reasoning is?

It dismays me that a bunch of guys can come here and have a total consensus on this, but it hardly shocks given the challenge societies across the world have on their hands in addressing rape culture. 

Although I'm not coming from a place of histrionic outrage or anything here, I can virtually count down the seconds until someone in this thread starts crying "PC gone mad" as a means of dismissing what I'm saying rather than truly attempting to reflect on their position or engage in a meaningful discussion. 




I can answer, from my point of view, why I am not outraged by Game of Thrones.

I don't like censorship and I don't like being told how to react to TV, films etc..

I am an adult and I can distinguish between fiction and reality.

When violence happens in real life, I can tell you it is vastly different than on some TV program.

If something on TV disturbs you, then don't watch it. I wouldn't.

On a slightly related note.. Here is some awesomness...





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  Reply # 1308417 20-May-2015 12:33
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NZtechfreak:

Although I'm not coming from a place of histrionic outrage or anything here, I can virtually count down the seconds until someone in this thread starts crying "PC gone mad" as a means of dismissing what I'm saying rather than truly attempting to reflect on their position or engage in a meaningful discussion.




While I don't think "PC gone mad" is appropriate to your statement, it seems to me if society has trouble dealing with a fictitious rape which is in no way being portrayed as a good thing in the context of the show then we are in trouble when it comes to dealing with real world sexual violence. I can't help but think that objections to the content is the "PC gone mad" equivalent of sticking the proverbial head in the sand and pretending this is not a topic for discussion. Does the show colour the situation with some ambiguity to make a person think? I would say yes. Shouldn't a story that suggests the context of sexual violence is more complex than a simple good vs evil context be celebrated acknowledged for dealing with subject of domestic sexual violence in a mature way? This wasn't some shoehorned in scene of wildling raping of a nameless extra. It was a scene depicted in a way to get people to think and discuss. I think dismissing the subject and reviling the show for covering based on it producing an emotional response would aptly be described as,"PC gone mad."

We all know media goes for the low hanging fruit in sensationalism to sell adverts. While I can't agree with all statements in this thread I can certainly emphasize with the frustrations of here we go again feeling generated by the "outrage." It cheapens the subject and creates a dismissive atmosphere.




Please note: I have a professional bias towards Vodafone.

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