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  # 1327261 18-Jun-2015 13:17
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clevedon:  And I still believe the directive is racist also. We will have to disagree on both points then.


If doing stuff in an effort to stop so many of these guys ending up in jail is racist then I'm all good with that.

Personally I thought it was a great policy. 

I think the media have done a bang up job of drawing attention to peoples rights to ask for a corrective alternative as well.

People can run around and call me a racist fat white man today if they want to, if it means we're going to see more good outcomes like these.





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  # 1327366 18-Jun-2015 14:39
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Valid arguments going both ways in this discussion on whether this policy is good or not.

What worries me  is that, either with or without this policy in place, not really a great deal is being done by authorities to remove unlicensed drivers from our roads.
Whilst nowhere near foolproof, the holder of said licences has (in most cases) proven some level of driving competence and understanding of road-rules and safety.

This recent news is scaring the sh*t out of me even more now that at any time I (or one of my family) could get hit by a one tonne piece of metal moving at 150km/h because the person driving it has absolutely zero expertise in knowing how to control it.




The first 5 days after the weekend are the hardest.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1327472 18-Jun-2015 18:37
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DonGould:
clevedon:  And I still believe the directive is racist also. We will have to disagree on both points then.


If doing stuff in an effort to stop so many of these guys ending up in jail is racist then I'm all good with that.

Personally I thought it was a great policy. 

I think the media have done a bang up job of drawing attention to peoples rights to ask for a corrective alternative as well.

People can run around and call me a racist fat white man today if they want to, if it means we're going to see more good outcomes like these.


You need to look at the whole picture though. 

I would take it as an insult if I were part of a race awarded special treatment. This approach is condescending and insidious and further entrenches anti-maori attitudes in society.

People will more likely to consider maori as second class citizens needing a hand in all matters, and maori themselves will adapt to fit these expectations.   It is not easy to reverse this perception either after attitudes become locked in. 

And, future maori offending will inevitably increase and the answer will be to introduce further maori specific policies. And the vicious spiral into hopelessness will continue. 


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  # 1327478 18-Jun-2015 19:10
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surfisup1000:
DonGould:
clevedon:  And I still believe the directive is racist also. We will have to disagree on both points then.


If doing stuff in an effort to stop so many of these guys ending up in jail is racist then I'm all good with that.

Personally I thought it was a great policy. 

I think the media have done a bang up job of drawing attention to peoples rights to ask for a corrective alternative as well.

People can run around and call me a racist fat white man today if they want to, if it means we're going to see more good outcomes like these.


You need to look at the whole picture though. 

I would take it as an insult if I were part of a race awarded special treatment. This approach is condescending and insidious and further entrenches anti-maori attitudes in society.

People will more likely to consider maori as second class citizens needing a hand in all matters, and maori themselves will adapt to fit these expectations.   It is not easy to reverse this perception either after attitudes become locked in. 

And, future maori offending will inevitably increase and the answer will be to introduce further maori specific policies. And the vicious spiral into hopelessness will continue. 



Unfortunately you make a valid point, all too often I encountered attitudes like this in NZ, we have a culture of kicking those in need. And please I am not saying you have these attitudes.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1327499 18-Jun-2015 19:46
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surfisup1000:
You need to look at the whole picture though. 

I would take it as an insult if I were part of a race awarded special treatment. This approach is condescending and insidious and further entrenches anti-maori attitudes in society.

People will more likely to consider maori as second class citizens needing a hand in all matters, and maori themselves will adapt to fit these expectations.   It is not easy to reverse this perception either after attitudes become locked in. 

And, future maori offending will inevitably increase and the answer will be to introduce further maori specific policies. And the vicious spiral into hopelessness will continue. 



I don't really care about insult in this case.  Maori are a second class.  They are way over represented in low income and our prison system.

We've paid out billions in treaty settlements.  We give them all sorts of additional help.

This policy seems to me to be all about actually bringing change to the issues that you're highlighting.

If they're insulted then tough.  The best way to stop being insulted is for them to gather together and get every single Maori person over the line with a drivers license.  It's just not that hard!

While I posted a bit list of costs earlier, what I didn't say is that I taught my exwife to drive.  It only cost me petrol in the car.

You can't tell me that these guys couldn't get this done.  They can.  They just don't want to.

If they're feeling insulted then I suggest it's because they're quite comfortable with that.




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  # 1327500 18-Jun-2015 19:54
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DonGould:
surfisup1000:
You need to look at the whole picture though. 

I would take it as an insult if I were part of a race awarded special treatment. This approach is condescending and insidious and further entrenches anti-maori attitudes in society.

People will more likely to consider maori as second class citizens needing a hand in all matters, and maori themselves will adapt to fit these expectations.   It is not easy to reverse this perception either after attitudes become locked in. 

And, future maori offending will inevitably increase and the answer will be to introduce further maori specific policies. And the vicious spiral into hopelessness will continue. 



I don't really care about insult in this case.  Maori are a second class.  They are way over represented in low income and our prison system.

We've paid out billions in treaty settlements.  We give them all sorts of additional help.

This policy seems to me to be all about actually bringing change to the issues that you're highlighting.

If they're insulted then tough.  The best way to stop being insulted is for them to gather together and get every single Maori person over the line with a drivers license.  It's just not that hard!

While I posted a bit list of costs earlier, what I didn't say is that I taught my exwife to drive.  It only cost me petrol in the car.

You can't tell me that these guys couldn't get this done.  They can.  They just don't want to.

If they're feeling insulted then I suggest it's because they're quite comfortable with that.


Māori are not second class citizens, they are citizens. Many have serious problem but that does not make them second class.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1327508 18-Jun-2015 20:08
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MikeB4: Māori are not second class citizens, they are citizens. Many have serious problem but that does not make them second class.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-class_citizen

A second-class citizen is a person who is systematically discriminated against within a state or other political jurisdiction, despite their nominal status as a citizen or legal resident there.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/second+class+citizen

 

a citizen, especially a member of a minority group, who is denied the social, political, and economic benefits of citizenship.


Sorry I stand corrected.  You're quite right, they're not second class by definition. 

They're not denied, they choose.

In this case they're just choosing not to have licenses. 

I don't really know what to think.  In my view they agreed to the treaty to join with us, the British, and live under the queens rule.  But they don't seem to honour that treaty.

I guess if we could wind back time then they just don't sign and we see who rules the country.  If I recall my history correctly, part of the reason the British wanted the treaty was because someone else was looking at taking over the country without the union.  Wonder what life would be like under their rule for the Maori?






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  # 1327520 18-Jun-2015 20:20
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DonGould:
MikeB4: Māori are not second class citizens, they are citizens. Many have serious problem but that does not make them second class.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-class_citizen

A second-class citizen is a person who is systematically discriminated against within a state or other political jurisdiction, despite their nominal status as a citizen or legal resident there.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/second+class+citizen

a citizen, especially a member of a minority group, who is denied the social, political, and economic benefits of citizenship.


Sorry I stand corrected.  You're quite right, they're not second class by definition. 

They're not denied, they choose.

In this case they're just choosing not to have licenses. 

I don't really know what to think.  In my view they agreed to the treaty to join with us, the British, and live under the queens rule.  But they don't seem to honour that treaty.

I guess if we could wind back time then they just don't sign and we see who rules the country.  If I recall my history correctly, part of the reason the British wanted the treaty was because someone else was looking at taking over the country without the union.  Wonder what life would be like under their rule for the Maori?




You are displaying what I would hear all to often such as unemployed are unemployed by choice, DPB recipients are young unmarried females etc etc. I am not on Income Support but do not work due to illness by your belief I choose this situation. You are of course very wrong





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1327528 18-Jun-2015 20:36
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MikeB4:
You are displaying what I would hear all to often such as unemployed are unemployed by choice, DPB recipients are young unmarried females etc etc. I am not on Income Support but do not work due to illness by your belief I choose this situation. You are of course very wrong



Really?

We're talking about a race here.  A group of people who are simply over represented.  We're not talking about a representative group of people.

The race is over represented in all those groups you highlight, why?

They have been given enough money not to be over represented.  Why is it still the case?

Why is this race over represented in licensing issues?

Why do they not honour the terms of the treaty?








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  # 1327532 18-Jun-2015 20:48
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DonGould:
MikeB4:
You are displaying what I would hear all to often such as unemployed are unemployed by choice, DPB recipients are young unmarried females etc etc. I am not on Income Support but do not work due to illness by your belief I choose this situation. You are of course very wrong



Really?

We're talking about a race here.  A group of people who are simply over represented.  We're not talking about a representative group of people.

The race is over represented in all those groups you highlight, why?

They have been given enough money not to be over represented.  Why is it still the case?

Why is this race over represented in licensing issues?

Why do they not honour the terms of the treaty?






What on earth has the Treaty to do with this?
Show me statistics that Māori are over represented in licensing issues?
What is this money you write about that means they should not be having issues?
As for those on Income Support recipients cover a wide range of NZ citizens, you are making claims that I feel you do not know.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1327535 18-Jun-2015 21:01
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MikeB4: What on earth has the Treaty to do with this?


"Her Majesty therefore being desirous to establish a settled form of Civil Government with a view to avert the evil consequences which must result from the absence of the necessary Laws and Institutions alike to the native population and to Her subjects has been graciously pleased to empower and to authorise me William Hobson a Captain in Her Majesty's Royal Navy Consul and Lieutenant-Governor of such parts of New Zealand as may be or hereafter shall be ceded to her Majesty to invite the confederated and independent Chiefs of New Zealand to concur in the following Articles and Conditions."

I take that to mean that they agreed to live under the same rule of law, but they don't.

MikeB4: Show me statistics that Māori are over represented in licensing issues?


Read the media release by the police earlier in the week, they imply the point.

MikeB4: What is this money you write about that means they should not be having issues?


The state has paid out billions in treaty settlements. 

In Christchurch the Maori owned the local police station.  What's the insurance claim on that building along?






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  # 1327543 18-Jun-2015 21:23
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DonGould:
MikeB4: What on earth has the Treaty to do with this?


"Her Majesty therefore being desirous to establish a settled form of Civil Government with a view to avert the evil consequences which must result from the absence of the necessary Laws and Institutions alike to the native population and to Her subjects has been graciously pleased to empower and to authorise me William Hobson a Captain in Her Majesty's Royal Navy Consul and Lieutenant-Governor of such parts of New Zealand as may be or hereafter shall be ceded to her Majesty to invite the confederated and independent Chiefs of New Zealand to concur in the following Articles and Conditions."

I take that to mean that they agreed to live under the same rule of law, but they don't.

MikeB4: Show me statistics that Māori are over represented in licensing issues?


Read the media release by the police earlier in the week, they imply the point.

MikeB4: What is this money you write about that means they should not be having issues?


The state has paid out billions in treaty settlements. 

In Christchurch the Maori owned the local police station.  What's the insurance claim on that building along?




To your treaty settlement comment the government has made available many billions to job creation and benefits yet there unemployment and those in need of income support across our population do your assertion by extrapolation is that all on Income Support
Are choosing to be on Income Support.

As to you Treaty quote, give me a break.

I fear I will break the FUG if I were to describe your comments.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1327544 18-Jun-2015 21:35
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Well we can't have you breaching the fug over this issue, so let's agree to disagree and move on. 

I've enjoyed the discussion :)  I can see we have a differing view.  I've been enjoying reading yours.




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  # 1327553 18-Jun-2015 21:46
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DonGould: Well we can't have you breaching the fug over this issue, so let's agree to disagree and move on. 

I've enjoyed the discussion :)  I can see we have a differing view.  I've been enjoying reading yours.


I will always enjoy a good discussion around this subject type. I was in paid work for close on 25 years for in Social Services and a further 10 years in voluntary Social Services so its a topic
I have some experience in.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1327556 18-Jun-2015 21:54
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DonGould:
Geektastic:

We are talking about a very simple document here - a driving licence. Pretty much everywhere in the world requires people to have one in order to drive. It is not a massive infringement of civil liberties to expect people to get one if they wish to take advantage of the privilege of driving on the public roads.


Driving isn't a privilege, it's a right.

Geektastic:
The documents are cheap as chips - barely $100. However, it seems to me a logical solution is this:


Sure, for you $100 for tests might be cheap.  Some people spend more than that on coffee each week, but for people in South Auckland, that can be a lot of money.

Geektastic:
Make the licence free.


Agreed.  The whole process should be free, end to end.  We should just fund it off a 1cent increase in petrol and road users.

Geektastic:
Then double the punishment for not having one, because there is no longer ANY excuse other than wilful intent.


$800 fine. 

I just don't get the impression you actually understand these people or have thought this through.

These people just don't care.  You give them an $800 fine you'll then just have to follow them up to bring them to court, to give them community service orders, which they won't do, to bring them back to court to give them a jail term, which we end up paying for.  All the time they're laughing at you, because you're paying for it.

Geektastic:
It would probably work out cost neutral once you account for all the police and court time wasted chasing offenders now which would (logically) be significantly reduced.


Again, you're just making the assumption they pay the fines.  They won't.




Driving certainly is not a right.





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