Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
12869 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4305

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1338858 7-Jul-2015 19:29
Send private message

MileHighKiwi: I'm looking forward to the day I can go out and all I will need to carry is my phone, especially a night out on the town :)


I think I can honestly say that those words will never leave my mouth...! ;-)





12869 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4305

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1338862 7-Jul-2015 19:35
One person supports this post
Send private message

VodafoneDylan:
graemeh: I tried putting a paytag sticker on my NFC phone, it was not a good outcome as the phone tried to talk to the sticker :(


Yeah, personally I'm not a big fan of the stickers, very much prefer Semble.

Although... there is some potential for fun... For example if you wear a hat you could hide a sticker in the brim and pay by ceremoniously tipping your hat to the payment terminal.


Or stick it on your hand, wear white gloves and pay ..."as if by magic!" as you wave your hand over the terminal! cool





 
 
 
 


2152 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 545


  # 1338863 7-Jul-2015 19:35
Send private message

Geektastic:
coffeebaron:
sbiddle:
Yabanize:
roobarb:
sbiddle: Semble can't emulate EFTPOS. Why? Because EFTPOS doesn't have a NFC solution.


You would need a very very thin phone with a magstripe on it....



Although if you have a Visa Debit card with a chip on it, you can use Eftpos (your check or savings account) by inserting the card (using the chip) and not using the mag stripe


But this is still a Visa solution (and likewise there is a MasterCard debit solution).

From a technical perspective adding NFC to "EFTPOS" (ie your cheque/savings) is actually very simple. The business rules around this however are a major change, particularly when you start to deal with issues with as fraud liability and who should absorb this, particularly as there are no interchange fee to essentially absorb this from. I don't know what the current level of CC fraud is in NZ but if you're to assume we're similar to Australian we'll be sitting at around 0.5%



Moving forward, this needs to happen. Why should shop owners have to pay 2-5% merchant fees to have contact payment facility. This will only reach mass market once there is an EFTPOS (not VISA debit) NFC option. I hope the banks are seriously looking at solutions to provide this.


Do people really still use EFTPOS cards? About time they went in the bin - they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard if you set foot outside NZ. In fact I think NZ might be one of few - if not the only - place where some sort of networked card system has not replaced a homespun version.


Yes - Because some people don't want a credit card or can't get one, they would rather spend the money they have.

Visa Debit / the master card equivalent gives the best of both worlds.. Spending your own money, while still being able to use it online and overseas

mdf

2230 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 686

Trusted
Subscriber

  # 1338866 7-Jul-2015 19:40
One person supports this post
Send private message

sbiddle: The Nexus does fully support HCE which is what Westpac and ANZ will launch in coming months.

Ultimately you'd expect to see Semble going down the same path and supporting HCE. It has some significant advantages, but does have some disadvantages.




So, I've been reading about this some more.

Am I right in saying that:

- there are two main options for NFC/smartphone payments - Host-based Card Emulation (HCE) and Secure Element-based card emulation (SE)
- for SE, there is a physical "token" (might not be the right word) in the phone that contains the information necessary to make a payment
- for HCE, the "token" is actually stored in the cloud
- for SE, the phone's CPU and operating system are not actually engaged/are fully bypassed in making payments (this is how it can work when the phone is off). This is notionally more secure against hacking.
- for HCE, the phone's CPU and operating system have to be engaged to send the request to the relevant cloud server. This is notionally less secure against hacking
- in both cases, the token doesn't actually store "real" payment information (e.g. credit card and PIN number), rather something like a hash or public/private key cryptography that allows the information to be retrieved - this may well address the hacking point/feats.
- Semble and Snapper use SE, with the secure element part of of the SIM card
- Apple pay also uses SE, but the secure element is embedded in the phone
- Google Wallet/Pay uses HCE

Pros of SE:
- inherently very secure
- can function without phone on
- can function without a data connection

Cons of SE:
- everything has to be routed via the SE - with only limited capacity and processing power, may be more limited in it's future flexibility/adapdability
- if you have the SE, you have the keys to the house
- tied to a particular secure element/device

Pros of HCE:
- much more flexible - e.g. new apps allowing payment functionality much more straightforward
- not tied to a particular device

Cons of HCE:
- less secure/more vulnerable
- needs power and data connection

Sound about right? I'm new to this, what have I missed?

483 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 286

Trusted

  # 1338875 7-Jul-2015 20:04
Send private message

mdf: Sound about right? I'm new to this, what have I missed?


That's a pretty good summary. A little additions is that both Semble credit cards and Snapper are fully fledged equivalents to the plastic cards. The SIM contains the full EMV card applets and they appear to a terminal as a full EMV card with secure keys/certificates and perform the same authentication/transaction exchange as a contactless  card. For semble credit cards it is like having another plastic card that refer to the same account. For Snapper, it contains its own individual stored value purse.

22154 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4728

Trusted
Subscriber

  # 1338880 7-Jul-2015 20:17
Send private message

Yabanize:
Yes - Because some people don't want a credit card or can't get one, they would rather spend the money they have.

Visa Debit / the master card equivalent gives the best of both worlds.. Spending your own money, while still being able to use it online and overseas


Sounds like bank marketing BS.

its really the worst of both worlds.

Instant take from your own money like eftpos, and insecurity and high fees of a visa/mastercard.

Why _anyone_ would think that exposing your own money to the risks of a visa card is a good idea is something I do not understand. Credit cards are available with very low limits, so you can be assured of paying it off each month. Last I checked $500 was available, zero risk to you, leave the money in your savings or transaction account till the due day and then pay it all so long as you dont need to dispute anything.




Richard rich.ms

27887 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 7374

Moderator
Trusted
Biddle Corp
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1338882 7-Jul-2015 20:18
Send private message

The main advantage/disadvantage (depending on your view) with UICC based SE (ie Semble) is that it requires the mobile operators to be part of the solution. To gain traction it also requires every mobile network operator to be on board, something that's never happened anywhere except NZ.

Their are many advantages of this, it's easy to deploy OTA updates to update or disable the SE for example.

A couple of the main downsides have been carriers around the world deciding it's the perfect way to clip the ticket on such a solution, something banks and credit card companies haven't been happy with. Another is that it also requires a device with a UICC in it, whereas a HCE based solution can work on a device that may only have a WiFi connection.



 
 
 
 


22154 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4728

Trusted
Subscriber

  # 1338884 7-Jul-2015 20:20
Send private message

It seems like an oversight of the HCE standard to not have provided a path to the cloud via the payment terminal. Cant count on mobile networks working indoors where you want to pay.




Richard rich.ms

483 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 286

Trusted

  # 1338888 7-Jul-2015 20:26
Send private message

richms: It seems like an oversight of the HCE standard to not have provided a path to the cloud via the payment terminal. Cant count on mobile networks working indoors where you want to pay.


You mean you want HCE to require the use of magic where the normal rules of physics are not sufficient?

HCE knows nothing about payments in the same way that TCP/IP knows nothing about YouTube, All HCE does is lets you exchange ISO7816 APDU over ISO14443, it says nothing about why you are exchanging those APDUs.

It sounds like you are asking for an NFC Forum NDEF WiFi or Bluetooth handover.

22154 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4728

Trusted
Subscriber

  # 1338910 7-Jul-2015 21:13
Send private message

roobarb: You mean you want HCE to require the use of magic where the normal rules of physics are not sufficient?

HCE knows nothing about payments in the same way that TCP/IP knows nothing about YouTube, All HCE does is lets you exchange ISO7816 APDU over ISO14443, it says nothing about why you are exchanging those APDUs.

It sounds like you are asking for an NFC Forum NDEF WiFi or Bluetooth handover.


Yeah, that would do it. Its not like anything that has NFC in it doesn't already have at least those 2 other radios built into it, and they can also push data over the NFC channel as well but that may mean holding the phone in place for too long.






Richard rich.ms

12869 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4305

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1338939 7-Jul-2015 22:09
Send private message

Yabanize:
Geektastic:
coffeebaron:
sbiddle:
Yabanize:
roobarb:
sbiddle: Semble can't emulate EFTPOS. Why? Because EFTPOS doesn't have a NFC solution.


You would need a very very thin phone with a magstripe on it....



Although if you have a Visa Debit card with a chip on it, you can use Eftpos (your check or savings account) by inserting the card (using the chip) and not using the mag stripe


But this is still a Visa solution (and likewise there is a MasterCard debit solution).

From a technical perspective adding NFC to "EFTPOS" (ie your cheque/savings) is actually very simple. The business rules around this however are a major change, particularly when you start to deal with issues with as fraud liability and who should absorb this, particularly as there are no interchange fee to essentially absorb this from. I don't know what the current level of CC fraud is in NZ but if you're to assume we're similar to Australian we'll be sitting at around 0.5%



Moving forward, this needs to happen. Why should shop owners have to pay 2-5% merchant fees to have contact payment facility. This will only reach mass market once there is an EFTPOS (not VISA debit) NFC option. I hope the banks are seriously looking at solutions to provide this.


Do people really still use EFTPOS cards? About time they went in the bin - they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard if you set foot outside NZ. In fact I think NZ might be one of few - if not the only - place where some sort of networked card system has not replaced a homespun version.


Yes - Because some people don't want a credit card or can't get one, they would rather spend the money they have.

Visa Debit / the master card equivalent gives the best of both worlds.. Spending your own money, while still being able to use it online and overseas


Exactly. My bank was issuing me with Visa Debit (known in the UK as Visa Delta in those ancient times) cards when I was at university in 1988. Surely it makes sense simply to bin Eftpos (the unbranded NZ specific card not the payment system) and replace it with that like most other places have done? 





12869 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4305

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1338941 7-Jul-2015 22:12
Send private message

richms:
Yabanize:
Yes - Because some people don't want a credit card or can't get one, they would rather spend the money they have.

Visa Debit / the master card equivalent gives the best of both worlds.. Spending your own money, while still being able to use it online and overseas


Sounds like bank marketing BS.

its really the worst of both worlds.

Instant take from your own money like eftpos, and insecurity and high fees of a visa/mastercard.

Why _anyone_ would think that exposing your own money to the risks of a visa card is a good idea is something I do not understand. Credit cards are available with very low limits, so you can be assured of paying it off each month. Last I checked $500 was available, zero risk to you, leave the money in your savings or transaction account till the due day and then pay it all so long as you dont need to dispute anything.


Firstly, credit cards are not available to everyone (although I suppose you could use the pre-paid version). Not everyone is considered a good risk.

Secondly, Visa guarantee fraudulent transactions (assumedly Master Card also) so provided you have not handed out your PIN or written it in felt tip on the back of the card, no one should be able to do anything with it that will cost you.





3080 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 500

Trusted
Subscriber

  # 1338953 7-Jul-2015 22:59
Send private message

Geektastic: 
Do people really still use EFTPOS cards? About time they went in the bin - they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard if you set foot outside NZ. In fact I think NZ might be one of few - if not the only - place where some sort of networked card system has not replaced a homespun version.


Incorrect.  Outside New Zealand (and Australia, for the Kangaroo brethren) your EFTPOS card is still capable of obtaining money from your bank account at an ATM via the Plus (Visa) and Cirrus (MasterCard) networks.  You can't use it at payment terminals or on the internet, but some would actually say that's a good thing.  Although Eftpos Australia is working to ruin that with support for internet payments via EFTPOS cards, which will likely make it to NZ relatively quickly once completed.  Paymark is already muttering about it.

4123 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 842
Inactive user


  # 1338986 8-Jul-2015 06:43
Send private message

So here is a basic question, do people who don't accept credit cards, accept debit cards? I am thinking in my case about the epicurean delights I purchase from Moore Wilson Wellington.

12869 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4305

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1339083 8-Jul-2015 09:23
One person supports this post
Send private message

kiwitrc: So here is a basic question, do people who don't accept credit cards, accept debit cards? I am thinking in my case about the epicurean delights I purchase from Moore Wilson Wellington.


Yes, Moore Wilson certainly do as I use mine there often - I have never had my Visa Debit refused anywhere in NZ where an eftpos machine is available.





1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter and LinkedIn »



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

New Zealand PC Market declines on the back of high channel inventory, IDC reports
Posted 18-Jun-2019 17:35


Air New Zealand uses drones to inspect aircraft
Posted 17-Jun-2019 15:39


TCL Electronics launches its first-ever 8K TV
Posted 17-Jun-2019 15:18


E-scooter share scheme launches in Wellington
Posted 17-Jun-2019 12:34


Anyone can broadcast with Kordia Pop Up TV
Posted 13-Jun-2019 10:51


Volvo and Uber present production vehicle ready for self-driving
Posted 13-Jun-2019 10:47


100,000 customers connected to fibre broadband network through Enable
Posted 13-Jun-2019 10:35


5G uptake even faster than expected
Posted 12-Jun-2019 10:01


Xbox showcases 60 anticipated games
Posted 10-Jun-2019 20:24


Trend Micro Turns Public Hotspots into Secure Networks with WiFi Protection for Mobile Devices
Posted 5-Jun-2019 13:24


Bold UK spinoff for beauty software company Flossie
Posted 2-Jun-2019 14:10


Amazon Introduces Echo Show 5
Posted 1-Jun-2019 15:32


Epson launches new 4K Pro-UHD projector technology
Posted 1-Jun-2019 15:26


Lenovo and Qualcomm unveil first 5G PC called Project Limitless
Posted 28-May-2019 20:23


Intel introduces new 10th Gen Intel Core Processors and Project Athena
Posted 28-May-2019 19:28



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.