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  # 1350314 23-Jul-2015 11:48
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heylinb4nz:
andrewNZ:
heylinb4nz: Is it fair to say though that Islam is more dangerous because it is not just a religion but also an ideology \ system of governance ?

And what exactly do you think our ideologies and systems of governance are based on !?!

Christianity.

It's very important when asking questions like this, to ask the same questions of your own system and beliefs.
For all intents and purposes, you are on the side that you think is in the right. They feel the same.


I think the side that doesnt call for killing of un-belivers, beheadings, the stoning of woman to death, the mandated rape of woman, the deception of host countries to become a majority and change the culture of that country, sharia law etc et

Is the side that is right...thats the side I choose anyway...and Id hope New Zealanders would not want an ideology that promotes such things.


exactly. unlike http://pamelageller.com/2011/11/islamic-law-.html/




Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.




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  # 1350315 23-Jul-2015 11:55
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wellygary:
heylinb4nz: Then I watched this last night https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU



Which is simply sensationalist bollocks

see this debunking, and the use of totally unverifiable figures in that video http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/more_or_less/8189480.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8189231.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/more_or_less/8189434.stm


Fair enough, but remember its less about race, its about the Ideology of Islam and its expansion.

Muslim is not even an ethnicity (it just means a person that has submitted to Allah...I could be a Muslim if I wanted).

BUT

Statistically certain races a predominantly followers of Islam, so you can quickly work out via immigration numbers that Islam is spreading and fast.

Where is becomes problematic for tracking is when

a) citizenship is obtained
b) countries like USA, where 14th Amendement is exploited (child born on US soil is US citizen)

You cant then track based on immigration, and many followers of Islam would not respond in a census (trying to hide their numbers as per deception promoted in the Quran).


 

 
 
 
 




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  # 1350319 23-Jul-2015 12:02
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MikeB4: The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 2 (15)

"15  Manifestation of religion and belief

 

     

  • Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."

The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 2 (9)

"9  Right not to be subjected to torture or cruel treatment

 

     

  • Everyone has the right not to be subjected to torture or to cruel, degrading, or disproportionately severe treatment or punishment."




Yep, problem with legislation is it is loaded with contradictions and grey areas..typically what happens when you try to apply liberal BS thinking and try to play nicey nicey and please everyone.

I also wonder if simply teaching Islam breaks other laws ? I mean if the Quran is their book, and it calls for the in-discriminant killing of people in the host country (unbelivers), beating of woman, rape of woman, they teach this content to kids for gods sake (excuse the reference to god).

Obviously it wont happen now, but lets say NZ becomes 70-80% Islamic over the next 50-100 years and a Islam follower gets into power ?

Sharia law ?

Killing of the 20% of Kiwis who havent converted ?..not unheard of in countries that are >70% islamic

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  # 1350322 23-Jul-2015 12:05
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heylinb4nz:
MikeB4: The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 2 (15)

"15  Manifestation of religion and belief

 

     

  • Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."

The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 2 (9)

"9  Right not to be subjected to torture or cruel treatment

 

     

  • Everyone has the right not to be subjected to torture or to cruel, degrading, or disproportionately severe treatment or punishment."




Yep, problem with legislation is it is loaded with contradictions and grey areas..typically what happens when you try to apply liberal BS thinking and try to play nicey nicey and please everyone.

I also wonder if simply teaching Islam breaks other laws ? I mean if the Quran is their book, and it calls for the in-discriminant killing of people in the host country (unbelivers), beating of woman, rape of woman, they teach this content to kids for gods sake (excuse the reference to god).

Obviously it wont happen now, but lets say NZ becomes 70-80% Islamic over the next 50-100 years and a Islam follower gets into power ?

Sharia law ?

Killing of the 20% of Kiwis who havent converted ?..not unheard of in countries that are >70% islamic


You are using extremism to posture an arguement 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1350323 23-Jul-2015 12:06
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heylinb4nz:
Has anyone here read the Quran ?


I read the quran and I am a muslim.

heylinb4nz: 

a) calls for the killing of un believers
b) allows for the beating \ lashing \ killing of woman
c) openly refers to non believers, jews and christian as vile sub humans who are to be killed
d) calls followers to migrate, procreate and decieve host nations until majority is held and Sharia can be implemented


a) There is a billion of muslims (population of 5 billions). If there is such a call in Islam, what do you think would have happen by now?

b) This is not true - Islam raises the status of the women. Here is the detailed answer: http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php

c) This is also not true. This view never existed in Islam. In fact, just look at the history, jerusalem for example - where all three religions existed in peace until recently. Do you remember the story of Spanish inquisition? How the jews lives with muslims in the Spain and who help the jews after Queen Isabella forced them out of the country. Until today - jewish group like Naturei Karta is side by side with muslims.

d) I am lost for words. 

I am a muslim, I live in NZ for many years now. I pay my taxes.

I do volunteer work for the NZ community and give donations/services to NZ organizations.

Please DM if you really want to know the true teaching of Islam. Thanks.





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  # 1350324 23-Jul-2015 12:06
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heylinb4nz: Is it fair to say though that Islam is more dangerous because it is not just a religion but also an ideology \ system of governance ?


Islam and Islamism are different things. One is a religion, the other an ideology.

As far as extremism goes, the ideology may use other tools of persuasion but not different from the extreme religious right in the USA in terms of objectives, really.







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  # 1350334 23-Jul-2015 12:21
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Here is what I understand about islam:

- islam states that no religion is acceptable other than islam.
- The Quran contains over a hundred verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. 
- It indoctrinates muslim children with a belief that Jews are descendent’s of apes and pigs. And that they should be annihilated.
- Goal of Islam is world domination.
- It is forbidden by the Islamic faith to integrate into other societies. (This can be seen in Europe today)
You welcome to correct me if you think I'm wrong. 

Does your religion or unbelief teach you to kill and die for someone/something (Allah)?

Islam does.

Should we be concerned? 

Well I'm not really concerned because we do not have a large proportion of islam people here in NZ.
I would probably be more concerned if I was living in Europe. I do hope to never see NZ going the same way. 


 
 
 
 




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  # 1350340 23-Jul-2015 12:25
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nakedmolerat:
heylinb4nz:
Has anyone here read the Quran ?


I read the quran and I am a muslim.

heylinb4nz: 

a) calls for the killing of un believers
b) allows for the beating \ lashing \ killing of woman
c) openly refers to non believers, jews and christian as vile sub humans who are to be killed
d) calls followers to migrate, procreate and decieve host nations until majority is held and Sharia can be implemented


a) There is a billion of muslims (population of 5 billions). If there is such a call in Islam, what do you think would have happen by now?

b) This is not true - Islam raises the status of the women. Here is the detailed answer: http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php

c) This is also not true. This view never existed in Islam. In fact, just look at the history, jerusalem for example - where all three religions existed in peace until recently. Do you remember the story of Spanish inquisition? How the jews lives with muslims in the Spain and who help the jews after Queen Isabella forced them out of the country. Until today - jewish group like Naturei Karta is side by side with muslims.

d) I am lost for words. 

I am a muslim, I live in NZ for many years now. I pay my taxes.

I do volunteer work for the NZ community and give donations/services to NZ organizations.

Please DM if you really want to know the true teaching of Islam. Thanks.



Happy to be debunked and happy for OPEN discussion here on forums to enlighten us that wish to know more. I am very keen to learn more and respect your right to follow Islam.

a) IF, you read the Quran, do you deny it contains dozen of quotes to KILL unbelievers ?

b) raises the status of them by what ? following whats said in Sura ? (beating, rape, obediance)

c) Except in the Hadith

d) you deny Hijrah exists ?

To me the true teaching of Islam is the Quran....if you do not follow your holy book then you are not truly following your religion, and as far as I know there is no such thing as modern Islam that allows you to pick and choose the good bits..but hey I may be wrong...please enlighten us.

PS: im not a NZ citizen either, I pay taxes and also do volunteer work...but that doesn't change my beliefs and goals , nor make them right.



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  # 1350341 23-Jul-2015 12:26
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I think virtually all religions are a problem society needs to deal with, not just Islam.





Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


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  # 1350345 23-Jul-2015 12:31
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heylinb4nz:
MikeB4: The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 2 (15)

"15  Manifestation of religion and belief

  • Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."



The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 2 (9)

"9  Right not to be subjected to torture or cruel treatment

  • Everyone has the right not to be subjected to torture or to cruel, degrading, or disproportionately severe treatment or punishment."






Yep, problem with legislation is it is loaded with contradictions and grey areas..typically what happens when you try to apply liberal BS thinking and try to play nicey nicey and please everyone.

I also wonder if simply teaching Islam breaks other laws ? I mean if the Quran is their book, and it calls for the in-discriminant killing of people in the host country (unbelivers), beating of woman, rape of woman, they teach this content to kids for gods sake (excuse the reference to god).

Obviously it wont happen now, but lets say NZ becomes 70-80% Islamic over the next 50-100 years and a Islam follower gets into power ?

Sharia law ?

Killing of the 20% of Kiwis who havent converted ?..not unheard of in countries that are >70% islamic


I am glad you are trying to read Quran to get a better understanding.

Unfortunately seems like your sources are anti Islamic extremist sites that show you verses from Quran that are out of context. I see this post more as a means of spreading hatred than anything else because you are posting something that is not in Quran / or have read it out of context in a way that makes you believe this is what is mentioned in Quran. It is a matter of pride that Quran is in one single form that every single person is not amending as it pleases them.

There is quite a similarity between extremists who believe they are muslims and spread violence and extremists who spread hatred about Islam, They both take Quran out of context for their own benefit.

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  # 1350358 23-Jul-2015 12:44
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heylinb4nz:
nakedmolerat:
heylinb4nz:
Has anyone here read the Quran ?


I read the quran and I am a muslim.

heylinb4nz: 

a) calls for the killing of un believers
b) allows for the beating \ lashing \ killing of woman
c) openly refers to non believers, jews and christian as vile sub humans who are to be killed
d) calls followers to migrate, procreate and decieve host nations until majority is held and Sharia can be implemented


a) There is a billion of muslims (population of 5 billions). If there is such a call in Islam, what do you think would have happen by now?

b) This is not true - Islam raises the status of the women. Here is the detailed answer: http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php

c) This is also not true. This view never existed in Islam. In fact, just look at the history, jerusalem for example - where all three religions existed in peace until recently. Do you remember the story of Spanish inquisition? How the jews lives with muslims in the Spain and who help the jews after Queen Isabella forced them out of the country. Until today - jewish group like Naturei Karta is side by side with muslims.

d) I am lost for words. 

I am a muslim, I live in NZ for many years now. I pay my taxes.

I do volunteer work for the NZ community and give donations/services to NZ organizations.

Please DM if you really want to know the true teaching of Islam. Thanks.



Happy to be debunked and happy for OPEN discussion here on forums to enlighten us that wish to know more. I am very keen to learn more and respect your right to follow Islam.

a) IF, you read the Quran, do you deny it contains dozen of quotes to KILL unbelievers ?

b) raises the status of them by what ? following whats said in Sura ? (beating, rape, obediance)

c) Except in the Hadith

d) you deny Hijrah exists ?

To me the true teaching of Islam is the Quran....if you do not follow your holy book then you are not truly following your religion, and as far as I know there is no such thing as modern Islam that allows you to pick and choose the good bits..but hey I may be wrong...please enlighten us.

PS: im not a NZ citizen either, I pay taxes and also do volunteer work...but that doesn't change my beliefs and goals , nor make them right.




This might answer some of your questions

- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kabir-helminski/does-the-quran-really-adv_b_722114.html



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  # 1350370 23-Jul-2015 12:50
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waqasmk:
heylinb4nz:
MikeB4: The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 2 (15)

"15  Manifestation of religion and belief

 

     

       

    • Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."



The NZ Bill of Rights 1990 2 (9)

"9  Right not to be subjected to torture or cruel treatment

 

     

       

    • Everyone has the right not to be subjected to torture or to cruel, degrading, or disproportionately severe treatment or punishment."






Yep, problem with legislation is it is loaded with contradictions and grey areas..typically what happens when you try to apply liberal BS thinking and try to play nicey nicey and please everyone.

I also wonder if simply teaching Islam breaks other laws ? I mean if the Quran is their book, and it calls for the in-discriminant killing of people in the host country (unbelivers), beating of woman, rape of woman, they teach this content to kids for gods sake (excuse the reference to god).

Obviously it wont happen now, but lets say NZ becomes 70-80% Islamic over the next 50-100 years and a Islam follower gets into power ?

Sharia law ?

Killing of the 20% of Kiwis who havent converted ?..not unheard of in countries that are >70% islamic


I am glad you are trying to read Quran to get a better understanding.

Unfortunately seems like your sources are anti Islamic extremist sites that show you verses from Quran that are out of context. I see this post more as a means of spreading hatred than anything else because you are posting something that is not in Quran / or have read it out of context in a way that makes you believe this is what is mentioned in Quran. It is a matter of pride that Quran is in one single form that every single person is not amending as it pleases them.

There is quite a similarity between extremists who believe they are muslims and spread violence and extremists who spread hatred about Islam, They both take Quran out of context for their own benefit.



Definately not trying to spread hatred, and the Quran does have some good values and messages to take away, In reading it though I find it had to put certain verses in any other context, ie they are clearly calling for certain things.

Very interested to hear thoughts and opinions from both followers of Islam and disbelievers.






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  # 1350374 23-Jul-2015 12:55
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heylinb4nz:

Would your average Kiwi be happy to allow the following

a) Satanists to migrate here under some satanic verse breed and breed with a view to becoming the majority to implement satanic law
b) for those satanists to build satanic temples in your communities
c) for your local Montessori to introduce your kids to Satanic themed days to appease the satanist kids (like they do when they celebrate Ramadan at daycare)
d) for those satanist to hold rituals in the privacy of their home or in their churches
e) for those satanists to make changes to your laws to allow (sacrifice of animals, satanic loans for satanists, satanic prayer time at work)
f) satanic float at the local Christmas parade



I am not Muslim, but if I was, I would be deeply offended at having my religion compared to Satanism.






I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  # 1350376 23-Jul-2015 12:57
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