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659 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1350380 23-Jul-2015 13:06
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Rikkitic:
heylinb4nz:

Would your average Kiwi be happy to allow the following

a) Satanists to migrate here under some satanic verse breed and breed with a view to becoming the majority to implement satanic law
b) for those satanists to build satanic temples in your communities
c) for your local Montessori to introduce your kids to Satanic themed days to appease the satanist kids (like they do when they celebrate Ramadan at daycare)
d) for those satanist to hold rituals in the privacy of their home or in their churches
e) for those satanists to make changes to your laws to allow (sacrifice of animals, satanic loans for satanists, satanic prayer time at work)
f) satanic float at the local Christmas parade



I am not Muslim, but if I was, I would be deeply offended at having my religion compared to Satanism.




I'm just saying if you allow such concessions for other religions than why not Satanism ?

Fat bottom Trump
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  # 1350381 23-Jul-2015 13:06
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Actually, I have no problem with Satanism either, but I imagine a devout Muslim (or Christian) might.





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1350386 23-Jul-2015 13:12
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heylinb4nz: 

I think the side that doesnt call for killing of un-belivers, beheadings, the stoning of woman to death, the mandated rape of woman,


In the days of the Inquisition, the Bible was used as a justification for the torture and murder of heretics. During the Crusades, all of those crimes were perpetrated by Christians on Muslims. Any group in the pursuit of power will grasp any excuse to improve their position, including re-interpreting holy books in their favour. Islam is no different from Christianity in that it is used as an excuse to abuse people.


the deception of host countries to become a majority and change the culture of that country, sharia law etc et


Surely you believe that our culture is better than the alternative you depict? And, if it really is better, don't you think that those immigrants will also see it and therefore change? You don't have to look far to see exactly that happening in NZ -- the children of Indian, Chinese, Dutch, English, and other immigrants are as Kiwi as the children of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ... generation Kiwis.



Is the side that is right...thats the side I choose anyway...and Id hope New Zealanders would not want an ideology that promotes such things.


There's no absolute right or wrong, so it's better NOT to choose sides. Instead, choose the best parts of both sides. Anyone who says that you must choose one side or the other is misleading you, and not to be trusted.

You're right that New Zealanders wouldn't want the kind of ideology that you depict, and NEITHER would most Muslims.




659 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1350387 23-Jul-2015 13:12
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waqasmk:
heylinb4nz:
nakedmolerat:
heylinb4nz:
Has anyone here read the Quran ?


I read the quran and I am a muslim.

heylinb4nz: 

a) calls for the killing of un believers
b) allows for the beating \ lashing \ killing of woman
c) openly refers to non believers, jews and christian as vile sub humans who are to be killed
d) calls followers to migrate, procreate and decieve host nations until majority is held and Sharia can be implemented


a) There is a billion of muslims (population of 5 billions). If there is such a call in Islam, what do you think would have happen by now?

b) This is not true - Islam raises the status of the women. Here is the detailed answer: http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php

c) This is also not true. This view never existed in Islam. In fact, just look at the history, jerusalem for example - where all three religions existed in peace until recently. Do you remember the story of Spanish inquisition? How the jews lives with muslims in the Spain and who help the jews after Queen Isabella forced them out of the country. Until today - jewish group like Naturei Karta is side by side with muslims.

d) I am lost for words. 

I am a muslim, I live in NZ for many years now. I pay my taxes.

I do volunteer work for the NZ community and give donations/services to NZ organizations.

Please DM if you really want to know the true teaching of Islam. Thanks.



Happy to be debunked and happy for OPEN discussion here on forums to enlighten us that wish to know more. I am very keen to learn more and respect your right to follow Islam.

a) IF, you read the Quran, do you deny it contains dozen of quotes to KILL unbelievers ?

b) raises the status of them by what ? following whats said in Sura ? (beating, rape, obediance)

c) Except in the Hadith

d) you deny Hijrah exists ?

To me the true teaching of Islam is the Quran....if you do not follow your holy book then you are not truly following your religion, and as far as I know there is no such thing as modern Islam that allows you to pick and choose the good bits..but hey I may be wrong...please enlighten us.

PS: im not a NZ citizen either, I pay taxes and also do volunteer work...but that doesn't change my beliefs and goals , nor make them right.




This might answer some of your questions

- http:// www.huffingtonpost.com/kabir-helminski/does-the-quran-really-adv_b_722114.html


Great, this is the sort of stuff Id like to see, its just a pity it isn't widely promoted. Keep the links coming.

523 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1350391 23-Jul-2015 13:22
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Lias: I think virtually all religions are a problem society needs to deal with, not just Islam.



Stephen Fry angry at a God maybe? foot-in-mouth

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  # 1350392 23-Jul-2015 13:24
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Satanism is a bit different from religions, in that it calls for the worship of an evil anti-god figure, rather than of a (presumably mostly benevolent) god.

It always seems a bit silly to me... I'm going to sell my immortal soul to the devil, in return for what? You'd surely want a great deal, especially if you believe all the burn-in-hell-for-eternity stuff (which surely you would have to, if you believed in Satan?). And I don't see Satanists living the life of Reilly. Unless Bill Gates and Hugh Heffner are really secret Satanists of course.

And, again, assuming your culture/religion is better than Satanism, then surely the Satanists will all convert to your beliefs? Conversely, if your culture/religion isn't better than Satanism, then you should welcome Satan with open arms yourself.


18 posts

Geek


  # 1350396 23-Jul-2015 13:28
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DizzyD: Here is what I understand about islam:

- islam states that no religion is acceptable other than islam.
- The Quran contains over a hundred verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. 
- It indoctrinates muslim children with a belief that Jews are descendent’s of apes and pigs. And that they should be annihilated.
- Goal of Islam is world domination.
- It is forbidden by the Islamic faith to integrate into other societies. (This can be seen in Europe today)
You welcome to correct me if you think I'm wrong. 

Does your religion or unbelief teach you to kill and die for someone/something (Allah)?

Islam does.

Should we be concerned? 

Well I'm not really concerned because we do not have a large proportion of islam people here in NZ.
I would probably be more concerned if I was living in Europe. I do hope to never see NZ going the same way. 



- islam states that no religion is acceptable other than islam.
- - There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256, Quran)

- The Quran contains over a hundred verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers.
- - There are a few verses in Quran in regards to going to war but they have to be seen in context. Quran teaches tolerance of other religions and living at peace with people from other faith. The following link which I shared earlier might clear your misconception, and clarify some of the verses that are shared out of context to spread hatred
- - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kabir-helminski/does-the-quran-really-adv_b_722114.html

- It indoctrinates muslim children with a belief that Jews are descendent’s of apes and pigs. And that they should be annihilated.
- - Don't know where you even got that from, Do you know Muslims believe in Jesus, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses...... Christianity and Jewish are believed as true religions and both are refers to as People of the book, as natural allies as they share the same teachings.

- Goal of Islam is world domination.
- - Don't know what to say, Islam gives everyone the right to follow their own beliefs. People are free to choose if they want to join islam or continue their own way.

- It is forbidden by the Islamic faith to integrate into other societies. (This can be seen in Europe today)
- - Again same answer as above

 
 
 
 


2123 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1350398 23-Jul-2015 13:29
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heylinb4nz:
andrewNZ:
heylinb4nz: Is it fair to say though that Islam is more dangerous because it is not just a religion but also an ideology \ system of governance ?

And what exactly do you think our ideologies and systems of governance are based on !?!

Christianity.

It's very important when asking questions like this, to ask the same questions of your own system and beliefs.
For all intents and purposes, you are on the side that you think is in the right. They feel the same.


I think the side that doesnt call for killing of un-belivers, beheadings, the stoning of woman to death, the mandated rape of woman, the deception of host countries to become a majority and change the culture of that country, sharia law etc et

Is the side that is right...thats the side I choose anyway...and Id hope New Zealanders would not want an ideology that promotes such things.

This has got beyond my knowledge, but your claims sound unlikely for non-extreme Islam.

If I was you, I'd start looking critically at the source of information and asking if it's accurate. It sounds a LOT like western propaganda.
Just because it looks legit doesn't make it so. The internet is not proof of anything, it can provide "proof" for both sides of nearly every view or argument, but it rarely presents facts.

If you're going to read the Koran, you need to actually read the Bible too. These are publications of a VERY different time and both promote killing, torture, and other things considered terrible in our time.


*For the record. I am a not religious NZer, and have been accused more than once of being a redneck.




Location: Dunedin

 




659 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user


  # 1350406 23-Jul-2015 13:37
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andrewNZ:
heylinb4nz:
andrewNZ:
heylinb4nz: Is it fair to say though that Islam is more dangerous because it is not just a religion but also an ideology \ system of governance ?

And what exactly do you think our ideologies and systems of governance are based on !?!

Christianity.

It's very important when asking questions like this, to ask the same questions of your own system and beliefs.
For all intents and purposes, you are on the side that you think is in the right. They feel the same.


I think the side that doesnt call for killing of un-belivers, beheadings, the stoning of woman to death, the mandated rape of woman, the deception of host countries to become a majority and change the culture of that country, sharia law etc et

Is the side that is right...thats the side I choose anyway...and Id hope New Zealanders would not want an ideology that promotes such things.

This has got beyond my knowledge, but your claims sound unlikely for non-extreme Islam.

If I was you, I'd start looking critically at the source of information and asking if it's accurate. It sounds a LOT like western propaganda.
Just because it looks legit doesn't make it so. The internet is not proof of anything, it can provide "proof" for both sides of nearly every view or argument, but it rarely presents facts.

If you're going to read the Koran, you need to actually read the Bible too. These are publications of a VERY different time and both promote killing, torture, and other things considered terrible in our time.


*For the record. I am a not religious NZer, and have been accused more than once of being a redneck.

 

 

 

good advice, have certainly taken it onboard and got in touch with our Muslim brother on the forums for some non propaganda info.

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  # 1350407 23-Jul-2015 13:38
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DizzyD: Here is what I understand about islam:

- islam states that no religion is acceptable other than islam.
- The Quran contains over a hundred verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. 
- It indoctrinates muslim children with a belief that Jews are descendent’s of apes and pigs. And that they should be annihilated.
- Goal of Islam is world domination.
- It is forbidden by the Islamic faith to integrate into other societies. (This can be seen in Europe today)
You welcome to correct me if you think I'm wrong. 

Does your religion or unbelief teach you to kill and die for someone/something (Allah)?

Islam does.

Should we be concerned? 

Well I'm not really concerned because we do not have a large proportion of islam people here in NZ.
I would probably be more concerned if I was living in Europe. I do hope to never see NZ going the same way. 



Is this learned from reading the quran or from some website that "may" have taken things out of context to make a point.




Delete Social Media

 


My thoughts are my own and are in no way representative of my employer.


523 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user


  # 1350409 23-Jul-2015 13:44
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waqasmk:
DizzyD: Here is what I understand about islam:

- islam states that no religion is acceptable other than islam.
- The Quran contains over a hundred verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. 
- It indoctrinates muslim children with a belief that Jews are descendent’s of apes and pigs. And that they should be annihilated.
- Goal of Islam is world domination.
- It is forbidden by the Islamic faith to integrate into other societies. (This can be seen in Europe today)
You welcome to correct me if you think I'm wrong. 

Does your religion or unbelief teach you to kill and die for someone/something (Allah)?

Islam does.

Should we be concerned? 

Well I'm not really concerned because we do not have a large proportion of islam people here in NZ.
I would probably be more concerned if I was living in Europe. I do hope to never see NZ going the same way. 



- islam states that no religion is acceptable other than islam.
- - There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256, Quran)

- The Quran contains over a hundred verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers.
- - There are a few verses in Quran in regards to going to war but they have to be seen in context. Quran teaches tolerance of other religions and living at peace with people from other faith. The following link which I shared earlier might clear your misconception, and clarify some of the verses that are shared out of context to spread hatred
- - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kabir-helminski/does-the-quran-really-adv_b_722114.html

- It indoctrinates muslim children with a belief that Jews are descendent’s of apes and pigs. And that they should be annihilated.
- - Don't know where you even got that from, Do you know Muslims believe in Jesus, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses...... Christianity and Jewish are believed as true religions and both are refers to as People of the book, as natural allies as they share the same teachings.

- Goal of Islam is world domination.
- - Don't know what to say, Islam gives everyone the right to follow their own beliefs. People are free to choose if they want to join islam or continue their own way.

- It is forbidden by the Islamic faith to integrate into other societies. (This can be seen in Europe today)
- - Again same answer as above


Thanks for the information. 
Thats just my views about the faith from over the years. 
Honestly I find it difficult to read the Quran and NOT believe otherwise.

One of the main issues I have with Islam is the inability in their faith to accept free speech. 

Why should I be worried about getting shot if I had to wear "Prophet" Mohammed demoralizing T-Shirt around town?
What about joking about "Prophet" Mohammed in the workplace? 
We living in a free country where all Kiwis should be learning to tolerate each other and promote free speech. Not oppose it, or trying to silence people with different views.

Sadly I believe that Islam is not very tolerant to free speech and/or other religions.

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  # 1350418 23-Jul-2015 14:00
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DizzyD:
Thanks for the information. 
Thats just my views about the faith from over the years. 
Honestly I find it difficult to read the Quran and NOT believe otherwise.

One of the main issues I have with Islam is the inability in their faith to accept free speech. 

Why should I be worried about getting shot if I had to wear "Prophet" Mohammed demoralizing T-Shirt around town?
What about joking about "Prophet" Mohammed in the workplace? 
We living in a free country where all Kiwis should be learning to tolerate each other and promote free speech. Not oppose it, or trying to silence people with different views.

Sadly I believe that Islam is not very tolerant to free speech and/or other religions.


What is to be gained by wearing "Prophet" Mohammed demoralizing T-Shirt around town?

There is a difference between free speech and hate speech the former does not make the later okay.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


523 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1350423 23-Jul-2015 14:07
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MikeB4: 

What is to be gained by wearing "Prophet" Mohammed demoralizing T-Shirt around town?

There is a difference between free speech and hate speech the former does not make the later okay.


What is gained? 
Proof that Islamist will not tolerate it. 

Sure the same can be said about other faiths too. The difference however is that other faiths will mostly ignore//moan/withdraw. Islamists will respond to this act with violence. Why is that?

Do we live in a country where we can choose to wear what we like or not?

BTR

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  # 1350426 23-Jul-2015 14:14
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Islam isn't the problem, its extremists which cause all of the issues, all religions have extremists and we should be worried about all of them. 


Here is a good video about religion and those who read into it to much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYaewOBGybw


To me religion is like a user manual, you can ignore it, loosely follow it or read it word for word. At the end of day we all follow different paths and end up in the same place.



659 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1350428 23-Jul-2015 14:19
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As DizzyD mentione, in my reading of the Quran @ Quran.com I find verses like

"When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

 

with this explanation

http://www.islam101.com/terror/verse8_12.htm

IMO Unless you were pretty good at understanding complex doctrine with dual meaning, contradictions and many other anomalies then youd be inclined to take things out of context quite easily.

What scares me is there are alot of young naieve, uneducated people in the world who are reading this stuff, or even worse being taught by people who don't understand it either, or deliberately want to use it in order to brainwash a mass of people and turn them against the west.

Thus setting in my mind that for all religions good, at the end of the day it creates to many issues for mankind, along with money, greed and power.






 

 

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