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  # 1350972 24-Jul-2015 09:21
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heylinb4nz:
MikeB4:
heylinb4nz: Meh, religion is for weak minded people that cant come to grips with their own mortality, and this has been exploited by many over the centuries.

I dont need an imaginary man in the sky to tell or show me how to live or treat other humans with decency, let alone for some lie that ill goto heaven..we die.. Thats it.

We humans are so bloody up ourselves and dumb if we think we can answer the universe with a book written by man.. We are naval lint and insignificant.

But hey i dont begrudge someone their religion, ill even go so far to find out something about it, so long as they dont screw up the lives of non believers or try to change the country to suit their religion.



You say in one line you don't need to be shown how to treat others with decency yet you describe others with belief different to yours as weak minded, how is that decency? 

I am not religious at all but I respect others beliefs and do not feel threatened by them or insult them. 


Yet the jews can call us Gentiles, Islam unbelivers\inifdels, Christains sinners,blasphmers and tell me im going to hell becuase I dont believe in their fairy man.

Oh wait, they are religious so they are allowed to do that...god forbid that non believers can make statements based on more credible reasoning...dare we insult them..or their liberal sympathisers.


I get really mixed messages from your posts on this thread.

You say you've been reading the Koran and now you're expressing an interest in visiting a mosque.

Yet many of the posts (such as that quoted above) are expressing some pretty antagonistic, reductionist, simplistic and potentially hurtful statements and generalisations around Islam and indeed all faiths.

This makes me feel your intentions may be more about finding evidence to support your current attitude towards Islam than to seek some further enlightenment into the Islamic faith/culture, or perhaps that you even want to give the impression of being open-minded towards Islam.

I'd have thought reading well-balanced texts on religion and faith, talking to practitioners,keeping an open mind, and not belittling people's faiths would have been a more appropriate approach to take.

One of the things that worries me the most is how many people are so keen to reduce all practioners of such a wide pantheon as Islam to one stereotyped group; most would acknowledge you can't do it with Christianity (what if we were to take the US religious right as the basis on which to generalise about all Christians?), but somehow it's ok when it's the "other" and "they" threaten "our" way of life...

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  # 1350986 24-Jul-2015 09:30
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heylinb4nz: NOTE: this is not about being anti- Muslim (ie racist), this is about the ideology of Islam and what it teaches)

Anyway ive been reading the Quran lately and also watched "Undercover Mosque"

Then I watched this last night https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

What are peoples thought on this ? is Islam something to fear ? is this just a natural progression of cultural change in the world or something more deliberate with a sinister agenda ?

Keen to get a discussion going about what the ramifications for New Zealand are, and the rest of the world.


First of all the demographics have been addressed many times on other videos that are available on YouTube so I'd take the originally linked video with lots of salt.

If there is a concern is should be the radicalisation and de-stabilisation that is caused by Saudi Arabia and gulf Arab states but unfortunately it appears that the video doesn't address that.




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  # 1350988 24-Jul-2015 09:36
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MikeB4:
heylinb4nz:
MikeB4:
heylinb4nz: Meh, religion is for weak minded people that cant come to grips with their own mortality, and this has been exploited by many over the centuries.

I dont need an imaginary man in the sky to tell or show me how to live or treat other humans with decency, let alone for some lie that ill goto heaven..we die.. Thats it.

We humans are so bloody up ourselves and dumb if we think we can answer the universe with a book written by man.. We are naval lint and insignificant.

But hey i dont begrudge someone their religion, ill even go so far to find out something about it, so long as they dont screw up the lives of non believers or try to change the country to suit their religion.



You say in one line you don't need to be shown how to treat others with decency yet you describe others with belief different to yours as weak minded, how is that decency? 

I am not religious at all but I respect others beliefs and do not feel threatened by them or insult them. 


Yet the jews can call us Gentiles, Islam unbelivers\inifdels, Christains sinners,blasphmers and tell me im going to hell becuase I dont believe in their fairy man.

Oh wait, they are religious so they are allowed to do that...god forbid that non believers can make statements based on more credible reasoning...dare we insult them..or their liberal sympathisers.


Two wrongs do not make a right. The attitude you are postulating here is what perpetuates intolerance. What was the adage, 'do unto others that which you would have them do unto you'




Nothing wrong with calling religious people weak minded, its more closer to logical reasoning (and also more polite) than saying to non believers, you are going to burn in hell for eternity if you dont believe in my imaginary fairy man in the sky, or your life is worth less than a barn animal, or convert to my religion or I will kill you.

Also how dare you mention intolerance HOW DARE YOU!!!, non believers should get a gold medal for tolerance when it comes to pandering to religious people.

- We shape our laws to suit them
- We give them tax free status
- We let them build their churches
- We let them knock on our doors and preach their wares
- We make concessions in our schooling \ childcare system and workplaces
- In the case of the jews we even let them setup organisations like the ADL to legally squash anyone that dares to speak

And we dare not say anything about it for fear of insulting them or their getting the backs up of their liberal do gooder sympathisers.




 

 

 

 



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  # 1350990 24-Jul-2015 09:39
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jonathan18:
heylinb4nz:
MikeB4:
heylinb4nz: Meh, religion is for weak minded people that cant come to grips with their own mortality, and this has been exploited by many over the centuries.

I dont need an imaginary man in the sky to tell or show me how to live or treat other humans with decency, let alone for some lie that ill goto heaven..we die.. Thats it.

We humans are so bloody up ourselves and dumb if we think we can answer the universe with a book written by man.. We are naval lint and insignificant.

But hey i dont begrudge someone their religion, ill even go so far to find out something about it, so long as they dont screw up the lives of non believers or try to change the country to suit their religion.



You say in one line you don't need to be shown how to treat others with decency yet you describe others with belief different to yours as weak minded, how is that decency? 

I am not religious at all but I respect others beliefs and do not feel threatened by them or insult them. 


Yet the jews can call us Gentiles, Islam unbelivers\inifdels, Christains sinners,blasphmers and tell me im going to hell becuase I dont believe in their fairy man.

Oh wait, they are religious so they are allowed to do that...god forbid that non believers can make statements based on more credible reasoning...dare we insult them..or their liberal sympathisers.


I get really mixed messages from your posts on this thread.

You say you've been reading the Koran and now you're expressing an interest in visiting a mosque.

Yet many of the posts (such as that quoted above) are expressing some pretty antagonistic, reductionist, simplistic and potentially hurtful statements and generalisations around Islam and indeed all faiths.

This makes me feel your intentions may be more about finding evidence to support your current attitude towards Islam than to seek some further enlightenment into the Islamic faith/culture, or perhaps that you even want to give the impression of being open-minded towards Islam.

I'd have thought reading well-balanced texts on religion and faith, talking to practitioners,keeping an open mind, and not belittling people's faiths would have been a more appropriate approach to take.

One of the things that worries me the most is how many people are so keen to reduce all practioners of such a wide pantheon as Islam to one stereotyped group; most would acknowledge you can't do it with Christianity (what if we were to take the US religious right as the basis on which to generalise about all Christians?), but somehow it's ok when it's the "other" and "they" threaten "our" way of life...


As ive said i'm happy for them to practice their religion, and I am even gracious enough to read about it and visit their place of worship. Doesnt mean Im obligated to agree with it or believe in it.

Yes I admit I may be a bit selfish in wanting to put some of my own fears to rest.

Who knows I may even change my opinion on religion one day, but that is for me to do.

I should add that I was a devote Catholic for a good 3 years of my life (attending church every sunday, midnight mass, christian camps etc) so I am aware of the principals of faith and religion, I even had an experience of speaking in tongues once but put it down to being caught up in the moment emotionally vs any devine link.

Since then i've been a man of reason, science and logic and yes I may come off as generalising sometime, but that is just how I work thought things.

Our Muslim geekzoner brother sent me some links to watch last night and a contact for my Local mosque, and I must say my concerns are much more lowered...yes I admit there is alot of crap out there in the media perpetuated by Western\US media.

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  # 1351011 24-Jul-2015 10:00
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heylinb4nz:
As ive said i'm happy for them to practice their religion, and I am even gracious enough to read about it and visit their place of worship. Doesnt mean Im obligated to agree with it or believe in it.

Yes I admit I may be a bit selfish in wanting to put some of my own fears to rest.

Who knows I may even change my opinion on religion one day, but that is for me to do.

I should add that I was a devote Catholic for a good 3 years of my life (attending church every sunday, midnight mass, christian camps etc) so I am aware of the principals of faith and religion, I even had an experience of speaking in tongues once but put it down to being caught up in the moment emotionally vs any devine link.

Since then i've been a man of reason, science and logic and yes I may come off as generalising sometime, but that is just how I work thought things.

Our Muslim geekzoner brother sent me some links to watch last night and a contact for my Local mosque, and I must say my concerns are much more lowered...yes I admit there is alot of crap out there in the media perpetuated by Western\US media.


You do not have to agree with them, but you do not need to insult them that is intolerance.

I respect others the same way I would expect other to respect my customs and beliefs, for example I expect people to remove shoes when entering my home and not to sit on tables and benches etc, in return I respect the customs etc when entering
a Church, Mosque, Synagogue or going onto a Marae or not walking a cross a parade ground. 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1351013 24-Jul-2015 10:00
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heylinb4nz:
MikeB4:
heylinb4nz:
MikeB4:
heylinb4nz: Meh, religion is for weak minded people that cant come to grips with their own mortality, and this has been exploited by many over the centuries.

I dont need an imaginary man in the sky to tell or show me how to live or treat other humans with decency, let alone for some lie that ill goto heaven..we die.. Thats it.

We humans are so bloody up ourselves and dumb if we think we can answer the universe with a book written by man.. We are naval lint and insignificant.

But hey i dont begrudge someone their religion, ill even go so far to find out something about it, so long as they dont screw up the lives of non believers or try to change the country to suit their religion.



You say in one line you don't need to be shown how to treat others with decency yet you describe others with belief different to yours as weak minded, how is that decency? 

I am not religious at all but I respect others beliefs and do not feel threatened by them or insult them. 


Yet the jews can call us Gentiles, Islam unbelivers\inifdels, Christains sinners,blasphmers and tell me im going to hell becuase I dont believe in their fairy man.

Oh wait, they are religious so they are allowed to do that...god forbid that non believers can make statements based on more credible reasoning...dare we insult them..or their liberal sympathisers.


Two wrongs do not make a right. The attitude you are postulating here is what perpetuates intolerance. What was the adage, 'do unto others that which you would have them do unto you'




Nothing wrong with calling religious people weak minded, its more closer to logical reasoning (and also more polite) than saying to non believers, you are going to burn in hell for eternity if you dont believe in my imaginary fairy man in the sky, or your life is worth less than a barn animal, or convert to my religion or I will kill you.

Also how dare you mention intolerance HOW DARE YOU!!!, non believers should get a gold medal for tolerance when it comes to pandering to religious people.

- We shape our laws to suit them
- We give them tax free status
- We let them build their churches
- We let them knock on our doors and preach their wares
- We make concessions in our schooling \ childcare system and workplaces
- In the case of the jews we even let them setup organisations like the ADL to legally squash anyone that dares to speak

And we dare not say anything about it for fear of insulting them or their getting the backs up of their liberal do gooder sympathisers.




   


Thank you for illustrating intolerance




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


Mad Scientist
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  # 1351016 24-Jul-2015 10:05
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heylinb4nz:

Nothing wrong with calling religious people weak minded, its more closer to logical reasoning (and also more polite) than saying to non believers, you are going to burn in hell for eternity if you dont believe in my imaginary fairy man in the sky, or your life is worth less than a barn animal, or convert to my religion or I will kill you.

Also how dare you mention intolerance HOW DARE YOU!!!, non believers should get a gold medal for tolerance when it comes to pandering to religious people.

- We shape our laws to suit them
- We give them tax free status
- We let them build their churches
- We let them knock on our doors and preach their wares
- We make concessions in our schooling \ childcare system and workplaces
- In the case of the jews we even let them setup organisations like the ADL to legally squash anyone that dares to speak

And we dare not say anything about it for fear of insulting them or their getting the backs up of their liberal do gooder sympathisers.

   


You forgot that your forefathers and their forefathers before them used to be a believer and hence laws were shaped around them. You think some random dictator shaped these laws that "non believers" have to tolerate? Doesn't make sense .... 

(I'm not talking about whether you think what they believed were real or not, but think about it ... I can't think that existing what you call crap existed against the grain ... surely!)




Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1351022 24-Jul-2015 10:14
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Anyway, I recall doing a paper at uni (or was it high school?) that religion drove science in the early days. That religion and science existed hand in hand. In some ways it still does, in many ways they seem poles apart and mutually exclusive, but that is not necessarily the case, they may still be discovering each other somehow. Science cannot yet explain even the existence of matter (not to mention what happened before/leading up to the big bang), so it has a long way to go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404200290.html





Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


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  # 1351023 24-Jul-2015 10:15
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Heres a question though -

If none of the religious books / texts were ever written, how would people know what to believe in?

Religious war - its all fighting over who has the superior imaginary friend.....



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  # 1351027 24-Jul-2015 10:16
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MikeB4:
heylinb4nz:
MikeB4:
heylinb4nz:
MikeB4:
heylinb4nz: Meh, religion is for weak minded people that cant come to grips with their own mortality, and this has been exploited by many over the centuries.

I dont need an imaginary man in the sky to tell or show me how to live or treat other humans with decency, let alone for some lie that ill goto heaven..we die.. Thats it.

We humans are so bloody up ourselves and dumb if we think we can answer the universe with a book written by man.. We are naval lint and insignificant.

But hey i dont begrudge someone their religion, ill even go so far to find out something about it, so long as they dont screw up the lives of non believers or try to change the country to suit their religion.



You say in one line you don't need to be shown how to treat others with decency yet you describe others with belief different to yours as weak minded, how is that decency? 

I am not religious at all but I respect others beliefs and do not feel threatened by them or insult them. 


Yet the jews can call us Gentiles, Islam unbelivers\inifdels, Christains sinners,blasphmers and tell me im going to hell becuase I dont believe in their fairy man.

Oh wait, they are religious so they are allowed to do that...god forbid that non believers can make statements based on more credible reasoning...dare we insult them..or their liberal sympathisers.


Two wrongs do not make a right. The attitude you are postulating here is what perpetuates intolerance. What was the adage, 'do unto others that which you would have them do unto you'




Nothing wrong with calling religious people weak minded, its more closer to logical reasoning (and also more polite) than saying to non believers, you are going to burn in hell for eternity if you dont believe in my imaginary fairy man in the sky, or your life is worth less than a barn animal, or convert to my religion or I will kill you.

Also how dare you mention intolerance HOW DARE YOU!!!, non believers should get a gold medal for tolerance when it comes to pandering to religious people.

- We shape our laws to suit them
- We give them tax free status
- We let them build their churches
- We let them knock on our doors and preach their wares
- We make concessions in our schooling \ childcare system and workplaces
- In the case of the jews we even let them setup organisations like the ADL to legally squash anyone that dares to speak

And we dare not say anything about it for fear of insulting them or their getting the backs up of their liberal do gooder sympathisers.


   


Thank you for illustrating intolerance


Intolerance would be actively trying to stop this stuff, which I am not doing. Im just making a point.

FYI intolerance doesn't just apply to religion and culture. Plenty of intolerant meddling liberals out there that go out of their way to change the world for the supposed better, god knows we tolerate more than our fair share of liberal BS.







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  # 1351031 24-Jul-2015 10:19
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Another interesting article.

John Key Celebrating the end of Ramadan in Parliament

Looks like the PM I support is actually starting to loose his marbles. 



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  # 1351039 24-Jul-2015 10:24
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joker97: Anyway, I recall doing a paper at uni (or was it high school?) that religion drove science in the early days. That religion and science existed hand in hand. In some ways it still does, in many ways they seem poles apart and mutually exclusive, but that is not necessarily the case, they may still be discovering each other somehow. Science cannot yet explain even the existence of matter (not to mention what happened before/leading up to the big bang), so it has a long way to go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404200290.html



Give mankind some credit, are you saying that religion never existed or came about that we would not get to where we are at some point in our existence ? be it another million years later. I dont believe religion today has anything more to offer us in terms of understanding and exploring our planet and universe.

Yes it does give hope (all be it false, but hey its still hope for someone in some form), it does good things (Salvation Army etc), it does strengthen families and communities.


But it also carries with it plenty of bad as well.


Now if mankind could do all the good things, without needing or relying on religion to achieve it might just make the world a slightly better and more managable place



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  # 1351053 24-Jul-2015 10:32
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sen8or: Heres a question though -

If none of the religious books / texts were ever written, how would people know what to believe in?


Religion and superstition existed long before the written word, and it has only been in the last few hundred years that ordinary people have been able to read the holy books.


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  # 1351057 24-Jul-2015 10:35
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heylinb4nz:

Intolerance would be actively trying to stop this stuff, which I am not doing. Im just making a point.

FYI intolerance doesn't just apply to religion and culture. Plenty of intolerant meddling liberals out there that go out of their way to change the world for the supposed better, god knows we tolerate more than our fair share of liberal BS.








Intolerance;

"

 

1. lack of tolerance; unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect opinions or beliefs contrary to one's own.

 

 

 


2. unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect persons of a different social group, especially members of a minority group. "

 







Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 1351058 24-Jul-2015 10:37
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roobarb:
sen8or: Heres a question though -

If none of the religious books / texts were ever written, how would people know what to believe in?


Religion and superstition existed long before the written word, and it has only been in the last few hundred years that ordinary people have been able to read the holy books.



I believe it was Henry the 8th that allowed the common folk to read the Bible




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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