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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1373716 25-Aug-2015 11:35
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DizzyD:
sir1963: 

And whats worse, the social workers we expect to work with these people are paid crap wages.


And what are these social workers doing to up-skill themselves, and in turn obtain better paid jobs?

 


Oh, and many of their client are "managed" which keeps them out of prison or mental institutions which both cost a LOT more money.

Problem with costs savings is you never see the savings, only the cost.

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Geek
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  Reply # 1373718 25-Aug-2015 11:37
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At times i'm amazed at the stuff coming out of peoples mouths.

People know that the largest benefitiary spending in this country is the pension, right? A lot of these people who are in situations where they can't afford such things desperately need things. Not to mention people on the benefit, be it pension or what have you aren't even making half the living wage.

As a student, constant fear of being kicked out onto the street, going hungry for a week because I didnt get paid enough for food and not being able to top up my phone are real monthly concerns. If I get sick, or need to go to the doctor I just stay sick because I can't afford most of the medication, let alone emergency doctors costs or the wait times when i have 30+ hours a week of classes.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1373719 25-Aug-2015 11:37
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jmh:
Geektastic:
jmh:
DizzyD:
jmh: My problem with this particular situation is that there is a direct line between the salesman on tv and the client.  There needs to be proper professional assessment somewhere in that lineup.  After all, it's possible that the equipment will cause the person physical harm if it is not checked over by a professional who knows the client's health condition.  By this, I mean a trained occupational therapist, not an administrator or 'customer services' assistant.


I take a different view.

taxmoney should not be spent on things like this. Not ever. 



I'm not unsympathetic with your view, but public spending should be on the basis on assessed need not personal opinion.  A professional assessment of the situation would likely have led to recommendation of physio equipment at a much lower price, or perhaps a green prescription as mentioned by someone earlier.  If the need is assessed by an expert through a fully transparent process, then taxpayers money is less likely to be needed for legal representation in court.  I personally don't think this item should be paid for by the taxpayer, but my opinion is not really relevant.  


What value is the tax payer getting from supporting this person though?


I'm not sure I understand your question. 


We are fully supporting this person. What are we getting for our investment?





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  Reply # 1373726 25-Aug-2015 11:42
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Geektastic:
We are fully supporting this person. What are we getting for our investment?


A member of our community




Mike
IT Management Consultant, Freelance money spender
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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Geek
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  Reply # 1373727 25-Aug-2015 11:43
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MikeB4:
Geektastic:
We are fully supporting this person. What are we getting for our investment?


A member of our community


Thank you, all your posts make me feel hope for humanity.

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  Reply # 1373729 25-Aug-2015 11:46
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DizzyD:
sir1963: 

And whats worse, the social workers we expect to work with these people are paid crap wages.


And what are these social workers doing to up-skill themselves, and in turn obtain better paid jobs?

 


Wow...  I don't know what to say!

Your posts throughout this thread have been simplistic in their analysis and understanding of this case, with a willingness willing to make blanket statements based on little knowledge of the facts or the wider context. Apparently your status as a "taxpayer" is enough to allow you to say anything without the evidence to back up your claims. I'm talking about such farcical suggestions as there being no need for a review authority to examine MSD decisions, or that such a body should be only made up of 'tax payers'. Do you seriously believe these statements, or are you baiting? If so, I took the bait...

And now this - that apparently the problem with social workers' pay is that they're lazy individuals who haven't done what they should to get a better paying job?

What??!!

From my exposure to central govt I've come to believe there's generally a strong relationship between working on the 'front line' and level of pay: the more you deal with the public in a government department, the lower your pay. Such disparity doesn't reflect the skill needed in the job, or the importance of the job - and social workers are an excellent example. The cr_p pay for what must be one of the more important and dfficult jobs in our society just highlights how much we as a society value those that manage the sh!t that no-one else wants to deal with. It's similar (but not as extreme) for workers at MSD/Work and Income (where the front-line/'back office' disparity in pay being significant).

 

 

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1373730 25-Aug-2015 11:49
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jonathan18:
DizzyD:
sir1963: 

And whats worse, the social workers we expect to work with these people are paid crap wages.


And what are these social workers doing to up-skill themselves, and in turn obtain better paid jobs?

 


Wow...  I don't know what to say!

Your posts throughout this thread have been simplistic in their analysis and understanding of this case, with a willingness willing to make blanket statements based on little knowledge of the facts or the wider context. Apparently your status as a "taxpayer" is enough to allow you to say anything without the evidence to back up your claims. I'm talking about such farcical suggestions as there being no need for a review authority to examine MSD decisions, or that such a body should be only made up of 'tax payers'. Do you seriously believe these statements, or are you baiting? If so, I took the bait...

And now this - that apparently the problem with social workers' pay is that they're lazy individuals who haven't done what they should to get a better paying job?

What??!!

From my exposure to central govt I've come to believe there's generally a strong relationship between working on the 'front line' and level of pay: the more you deal with the public in a government department, the lower your pay. Such disparity doesn't reflect the skill needed in the job, or the importance of the job - and social workers are an excellent example. The cr_p pay for what must be one of the more important and dfficult jobs in our society just highlights how much we as a society value those that manage the sh!t that no-one else wants to deal with. It's similar (but not as extreme) for workers at MSD/Work and Income (where the front-line/'back office' disparity in pay being significant).  


Nice strawman setup you have going there.
Let me think about my answer and send a reply later this aftenoon

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  Reply # 1373731 25-Aug-2015 11:54
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jonathan18:
DizzyD:
sir1963: 

And whats worse, the social workers we expect to work with these people are paid crap wages.


And what are these social workers doing to up-skill themselves, and in turn obtain better paid jobs?

 


Wow...  I don't know what to say!

Your posts throughout this thread have been simplistic in their analysis and understanding of this case, with a willingness willing to make blanket statements based on little knowledge of the facts or the wider context. Apparently your status as a "taxpayer" is enough to allow you to say anything without the evidence to back up your claims. I'm talking about such farcical suggestions as there being no need for a review authority to examine MSD decisions, or that such a body should be only made up of 'tax payers'. Do you seriously believe these statements, or are you baiting? If so, I took the bait...

And now this - that apparently the problem with social workers' pay is that they're lazy individuals who haven't done what they should to get a better paying job?

What??!!

From my exposure to central govt I've come to believe there's generally a strong relationship between working on the 'front line' and level of pay: the more you deal with the public in a government department, the lower your pay. Such disparity doesn't reflect the skill needed in the job, or the importance of the job - and social workers are an excellent example. The cr_p pay for what must be one of the more important and dfficult jobs in our society just highlights how much we as a society value those that manage the sh!t that no-one else wants to deal with. It's similar (but not as extreme) for workers at MSD/Work and Income (where the front-line/'back office' disparity in pay being significant).  

The last time I looked, we have an open labour market.  Surely this means that people select the occupation that best fits their qualifications, skills, experience and needs?  Nobody has been forced to become or remain a social worker, and personally, I would rather clean toilets or sweep the streets than do that job.  Sure, it's important work, but I don't think we have a shortage of them and therefore the law of supply and demand would indicate that they are being paid enough

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  Reply # 1373732 25-Aug-2015 11:58
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This thread reminds me of an interesting post I read today by Chris Trotter; while on a different topic (the popularity of Mike Hosking), there's something in it which helps explain for me the increasingly self-centredness in the NZ psyche:

"The sad fact is that Hosking is not the problem, merely its artfully tousled personification. His high ratings among 18-35 year-olds is explicable only if we accept that, in the eyes of those who have grown up under neoliberalism, being rich and famous is the indisputable desideratum of twenty-first century life. These youngsters have no wish to tear Hosking down, on the contrary, they want to be just like him. Wealth and fame have become the markers of a life well lived. By this reckoning, reiterated over and over again in Hosking’s speeches and columns: success is well-earned, by definition; and failure is merely Nature’s way of delivering her pink slip to those unfortunates on the wrong side of the Bell Curve."

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/08/19/heart-of-gold-why-mike-hosking-is-a-more-popular-broadcaster-than-john-campbell/

Equally, this reinforces to me the ever-increasing belief amongst many NZers that those 'on the wrong side of the Bell Curve" (as Trotter puts it) are to blame for their situation, and/or shouldn't expect help. More scarily, I reckon, is a total lack of interest into what causes disparity and what can be done to fix it on a systemic level.

Too often it's just easier to pick on individuals like this treadmill case and generalise about it based on one's own prejudices.

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  Reply # 1373733 25-Aug-2015 11:58
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Get a part time job.

okashiicake:

As a student, constant fear of being kicked out onto the street, going hungry for a week because I didnt get paid enough for food and not being able to top up my phone are real monthly concerns. If I get sick, or need to go to the doctor I just stay sick because I can't afford most of the medication, let alone emergency doctors costs or the wait times when i have 30+ hours a week of classes.




Mike

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Geek
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  Reply # 1373734 25-Aug-2015 12:00
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I heard on the news that she couldn't go walking outside because she also suffers from anxiety and irritable bowel syndrome...

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  Reply # 1373735 25-Aug-2015 12:01
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okashiicake: At times i'm amazed at the stuff coming out of peoples mouths.

People know that the largest benefitiary spending in this country is the pension, right? A lot of these people who are in situations where they can't afford such things desperately need things. Not to mention people on the benefit, be it pension or what have you aren't even making half the living wage.

As a student, constant fear of being kicked out onto the street, going hungry for a week because I didnt get paid enough for food and not being able to top up my phone are real monthly concerns. If I get sick, or need to go to the doctor I just stay sick because I can't afford most of the medication, let alone emergency doctors costs or the wait times when i have 30+ hours a week of classes.


Heh if you are struggling to make ends meet as a student, one idea would be to go and get a JOB (Even part time). My wife and I paid our own way through tertiary education. We spent a lot of time at student job search. I know plenty of students living ok by doing such things. We make a point of putting any jobs we have around the house, on SJS first to repay some of the help they gave us.

Pension, those people have payed taxes all their lives and are entitled to it. I think it should be partially asset tested, but it is what it is.


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Geek
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  Reply # 1373736 25-Aug-2015 12:02
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shk292:
jonathan18:
DizzyD:
sir1963: 

snip.


snip
 


snip

From my exposure to central govt I've come to believe there's generally a strong relationship between working on the 'front line' and level of pay: the more you deal with the public in a government department, the lower your pay. Such disparity doesn't reflect the skill needed in the job, or the importance of the job - and social workers are an excellent example. The cr_p pay for what must be one of the more important and dfficult jobs in our society just highlights how much we as a society value those that manage the sh!t that no-one else wants to deal with. It's similar (but not as extreme) for workers at MSD/Work and Income (where the front-line/'back office' disparity in pay being significant).  

The last time I looked, we have an open labour market.  Surely this means that people select the occupation that best fits their qualifications, skills, experience and needs?  Nobody has been forced to become or remain a social worker, and personally, I would rather clean toilets or sweep the streets than do that job.  Sure, it's important work, but I don't think we have a shortage of them and therefore the law of supply and demand would indicate that they are being paid enough


We also have relatively high unemployment and people who are recently out of university are generally not favored for positions in other work than low-rank, low wage government facilities. Surely you know that someone with an Arts degree wont be able to become a doctor or a pharmacist. Many of the high paid jobs in New Zealand aren't available for graduates, and there are so few of those jobs available that they;re normally always filled.

Being a social worker is hard work. You're forced to dehumanise every person you talk to and treat them like numbers on a page due to government restrictions. Its difficult to tell a family of four they wont be able to get food for this week because they forgot to sign one piece of paper/

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  Reply # 1373739 25-Aug-2015 12:06
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jonathan18: This thread reminds me of an interesting post I read today by Chris Trotter; while on a different topic (the popularity of Mike Hosking), there's something in it which helps explain for me the increasingly self-centredness in the NZ psyche:

"The sad fact is that Hosking is not the problem, merely its artfully tousled personification. His high ratings among 18-35 year-olds is explicable only if we accept that, in the eyes of those who have grown up under neoliberalism, being rich and famous is the indisputable desideratum of twenty-first century life. These youngsters have no wish to tear Hosking down, on the contrary, they want to be just like him. Wealth and fame have become the markers of a life well lived. By this reckoning, reiterated over and over again in Hosking’s speeches and columns: success is well-earned, by definition; and failure is merely Nature’s way of delivering her pink slip to those unfortunates on the wrong side of the Bell Curve."

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/08/19/heart-of-gold-why-mike-hosking-is-a-more-popular-broadcaster-than-john-campbell/

Equally, this reinforces to me the ever-increasing belief amongst many NZers that those 'on the wrong side of the Bell Curve" (as Trotter puts it) are to blame for their situation, and/or shouldn't expect help. More scarily, I reckon, is a total lack of interest into what causes disparity and what can be done to fix it on a systemic level.

Too often it's just easier to pick on individuals like this treadmill case and generalise about it based on one's own prejudices.


I don't believe what you are stating is even mostly true. I have no issues providing benefits to those in genuine need so long as those people understand it should be temporary and to help them survive, not a right to be for granted long term. If this woman had approached her WINZ office and explained she wanted to lose weight, resolve her health issues
and return to the workforce, and had been open to suggestions that were reasonable (like second hand treadmill or a more reasonably priced new one ($1200) and it had been handled in the correct manner, I for one, and I am happy to suggest most of the people commenting here, would have been more or less ok with it. 

I can speak from personal experience (Not me) where people I know on benefits, won't get jobs because they "won't be THAT much better off and would have to work 40 hours a week". This isn't one or two opinions either for the record. 

I can't stand this type of attitude, and I resent (fairly I think) anyone with that attitude. 

To Reinterate; I have NO issues with providing financial assistance for those who TRULY need it.


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  Reply # 1373740 25-Aug-2015 12:06
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networkn:
okashiicake: At times i'm amazed at the stuff coming out of peoples mouths.

People know that the largest benefitiary spending in this country is the pension, right? A lot of these people who are in situations where they can't afford such things desperately need things. Not to mention people on the benefit, be it pension or what have you aren't even making half the living wage.

As a student, constant fear of being kicked out onto the street, going hungry for a week because I didnt get paid enough for food and not being able to top up my phone are real monthly concerns. If I get sick, or need to go to the doctor I just stay sick because I can't afford most of the medication, let alone emergency doctors costs or the wait times when i have 30+ hours a week of classes.


Heh if you are struggling to make ends meet as a student, one idea would be to go and get a JOB (Even part time). My wife and I paid our own way through tertiary education. We spent a lot of time at student job search. I know plenty of students living ok by doing such things. We make a point of putting any jobs we have around the house, on SJS first to repay some of the help they gave us.

Pension, those people have payed taxes all their lives and are entitled to it. I think it should be partially asset tested, but it is what it is.



I have been looking for a job for over a year now, i've not had any luck. I've had jobs at various places but either the jobs on SJS are commission only or require being able to drive. I was in a car accident not too long ago and am unable to drive.
So, the jobs on there a lot of them I cannot do due to this one factor. The other few on there - if I manage to get them are six or seven hours work for less than minimum wage, in high stress conditions. I do run my own dog walking business, but living off of $230 dollars a week, before rent is seemingly impossible.

edit: Not to mention, even finding part time work that fits in with over thirty hours of classes, at least 4 hours a day and then time allocated for study and homework can be near impossible. Being a student can be as taxing as even having a job. Especially around exam periods.
I've lost part time Jobs because of my class schedule, and it wont be the first time it happens. Unfortunately, If you aren't a perfect person with no mental of physical handicaps you can't - and are not viable for a fair chance in life. I've not only worked for studylink but other human resourcing businesses and departments and it becomes increasingly clear that everyone has a 'its their fault, its always their fault' attitude about peoples situations.

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